[trachy357]

Throttle control is an extremely important part of entering and exiting a corner. Ultimately, if you lack good throttle control your lap times will never be as good as what they could be.

A lot of my students ask me questions about their suspension and what they can do about chatter. The answer is not the suspension but rather throttle control.

If you come down a straight towards a corner full throttle, then chop off the throttle suddenly...all the weight transfers to the front too fast. You lose a certain amount of control entering the corner and miss your mark (apex). At this point you might have front end chatter from having too much weight on the front end. On the exit of the corner, someone might get on the throttle too hard, too early and have front end chatter. Everyone thinks it is their suspension, but in fact this is lack of throttle control and your suspension maybe fine.

The trick is.."rolling off the throttle." Rather than "snapping off the throttle." Very small difference, but the balance of the bike is way different from rolling off vs. snapping off. It is not easy, but something that will ultimately get you into the corner smoother and with the bike more balanced. If you can get into the corner with more control, you should be able to hit your mark with more ease and then be able to get out of the corner quicker as well.

Getting back on the throttle is even more important. As you come into the apex and pivot the bike out of the corner you need to "roll on" the throttle at the exact same time as you finish your braking to the apex. It is true...you are either on the brakes or on the throttle. So as you finish your trail braking roll-on the throttle finding the verge of traction. If you are spinning off the corner you are losing time. If you are not rolling on hard enough...you are losing time. So the real trick is to be able to find the limit of your tire grip.

There is so much that goes into getting in and out of the corner quickly. Throttle control, Clutch control, Braking, line Selection, body positioning etc. And you have to do all these things basically at the same time or linking them together.

That is the real magic...If you look at most of the AMA National Pros you will notice that all of these things blend together. Once you can master all of them together you will be able to reduce those lap times and continue to ride faster.

A good drill for throttle control is to only use the throttle all the way around the track with limited or no brakes. This will force you to be smooth both with rolling off and rolling on the throttle.

Someone asked in the welcome section "How do I trick myself to get on the throttle sooner? I can keep up with the Pros entering the corner and mid corner but they leave me exiting the corner."

The answer to that question I think is in the entry of the corner rather than the exit. Anyone can brake late and carry alot of mometum into the corner. But, very few can contain that momentum and smoothly get into the corner, pivot the bike at the apex and get back on the throttle consistently. I would say that the entry speed between the guy with the question above and the pro maybe the same, but the pro is doing it with better control, and maintaining better balance of the bike, which in turn enables the pro to get out of the corner quicker. I have said many times to my students " A beginner may actually be going faster right at the center of the corner tahn I am, but I am in more control, have already pivoted the bike correctly at the apex and am rolling back on the throttle way sooner than they are.

It is all these thing that make throttle control a very important part of getting both into and out of a corner.

Hope this helps....:thumbup::thumbup:

Gary Silent "H" Trachy
National #357
Silent "H" Supermoto Schools
Supermoto357 Instructional DVD

 

[brian]

Gary, how do you feel about those "throttle cam kits" that give you varying degrees of arch on the cam itself ( usually three different cams to a kit)......meaning mid corner the throttle cam is flatter which won't allow you to "get on it" and hopefully exit the corner smoother being on the inside of loosing traction ?? Great thread BTW :thumbup:

 

[trachy357]

I think they are great if that is what works for you. I test so many different things to reduce lap times. I think something like the "throttle cams" would be something worth testing. It may not be needed or help some but may be just the perfect thing for someone with whisky throttle....I have never tried them myself, but I think it is something that could help alot of guys.

 

[svmango]

A good drill for throttle control is to only use the throttle all the way around the track with limited or no brakes. This will force you to be smooth both with rolling off and rolling on the throttle.

Someone asked in the welcome section "How do I trick myself to get on the throttle sooner? I can keep up with the Pros entering the corner and mid corner but they leave me exiting the corner."


Hope this helps....:thumbup::thumbup:

Gary Silent "H" Trachy
National #357
Silent "H" Supermoto Schools
Supermoto357 Instructional DVD

Seriously. What I did to improve in that respect.

On a really curvy road, lay off the brakes completely. On the straights, go

a tidge slower then what you could do in the corner. Just as, or before, you

tip into the corner, crack the throttle and gently begin to roll it on. After a

while you'll get a really good feel of what the rear can handle. On the track,

I get on the gas the instant I'm done trail braking. The rear may slide or spin

at times, but it is better than tucking the front.

Also I find that being on the throttle tightens my line and I can turn quicker.
My .02

I'm not as thick as I thought I was.

Good stuff G.

<Pats self on back> :bike:




:clap:

 

[OlleR]

Chatter is often a tire problem too, much more often than suspension! During my classes in the states I think I had to tell pretty much every rider to go up in tire pressure. You guys use too low tire pressures! (street tires should be around 29psi and race tires around 24psi)

About chopping the throttle, on a real race bike we have a very stiff chassie and the better setup the less important it is to watch how fast you shut off. It should never be like a light switch but it should take more than half a second either! Set the bike with little static sag and it will help in this manner.

I think the best way as a beginner is to allways brake in a straight line, as you steer the bike, open the throttle smooth, just enough to accelerate. Let the clutch out before you steer the bike. Using a slipper clutch will make this much easier. This will help you focus on one thing at a time and this is how pro's ride some corners too

When I teach someone about throttle control I take them out on a field of either grass or gravel. The best is if you've got a hill to practice on. Try at first to go up towards the hill and steer around a marker 180 degrees. If the front end lets go, try doing it again but open the throttle earlier. When you feel like you get the hang of it, do the same drill but down the hill instead. PS, dont put your foot down, its gonna suck to do it on the asphalt later on

*Edit, heres a great way to practice throttle control (this bike has stock throttle cam and on top of that it's rushing on throttle because of incorrect mapping):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f4t1xW6i2Xs

Another very good reason to practice throttle control is that the best place to powerslide the bike is right after you steered it. Doing this will let you open the throttle harder during the exit of the corner. This is a very usefull skill in double apex turns, making it possible to enter with even more speed and exit with better acceleration! It is a advanced technique tho, nothing to do as a amature racer

*Edit, heres a vid with some mid corner power slides. As seen, they are very small, but they point the bike back on the line again:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DSkAvgcgwBQ

I'm not saying that you are wrong in anything you say, I'm just filling in :thumbup:

//Olof Eriksson
Swedish Championship for Aprilia, Bridgestone and Alice racing

I think they are great if that is what works for you. I test so many different things to reduce lap times. I think something like the "throttle cams" would be something worth testing. It may not be needed or help some but may be just the perfect thing for someone with whisky throttle....I have never tried them myself, but I think it is something that could help alot of guys.

I use the G2 throttle tube on my Aprilia SXV. Theres three cams to choose between, 200 which is like stock, 300 which is "smoother" and 400 that is very smooth. Many riders think the 400 is useless and that it doesnt respond quick enough with it. I use the 400. The aprilia is very very touchy with the stock throttle. Theres no problem powersliding around a corner with the stock tube but during a whole race it will tire you out!

 

[trachy357]

There is some good points here. I think there is a lot for all of us to learn here. I welcome other people comments and hope we can get some cool threads going.

Thanks

 

[apexspeed]

I think throttle cams should be OEM on some of these monsters.. so much torque down low that its hard to accellerate on pavement on the straights and keep the nose down. mabey they are now for all I know.

I also belive cush drive would allow more power to the ground because the engine pulses are so harsh and thats why they break traction so easily. a cush drive would dampen the pulse slightly and allow more grip. surely Im missing something or everyone would be using them but it makes sense to me.

svmango, youre a hillbilly (be proud) Ive noticed that bluehairs in your local put most flatlanders to shame, no suprise y'all know what works! its so frustrating after spending some time up there to come back home to where the majority of drivers are slowing down for the slightest curves.

OlleR, wouldnt those higher tire pressures make a smaller contact patch? whats the benifits?

love your vids bro! Ice looks like so much fun but my fingers go numb just watching that vid!

I'd love to see a vid of the controled highside as a quick direction change you've spoke of in the past. Ive dont it, just not intentionally.

 

[OlleR]

I think throttle cams should be OEM on some of these monsters.. so much torque down low that its hard to accellerate on pavement on the straights and keep the nose down. mabey they are now for all I know.

I also belive cush drive would allow more power to the ground because the engine pulses are so harsh and thats why they break traction so easily. a cush drive would dampen the pulse slightly and allow more grip. surely Im missing something or everyone would be using them but it makes sense to me.

svmango, youre a hillbilly (be proud) Ive noticed that bluehairs in your local put most flatlanders to shame, no suprise y'all know what works! its so frustrating after spending some time up there to come back home to where the majority of drivers are slowing down for the slightest curves.

OlleR, wouldnt those higher tire pressures make a smaller contact patch? whats the benifits?

love your vids bro! Ice looks like so much fun but my fingers go numb just watching that vid!

I'd love to see a vid of the controled highside as a quick direction change you've spoke of in the past. Ive dont it, just not intentionally.

Less tire pressures makes the rubber overheat and even possibly fold, overheated rubber is like butter in the frying pan

Theres some controlled highsides in this vid (not as noticable when we havent got as much grip as on asphalt tho): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bnx6HcN1xYs

 

[OlleR]

Less tire pressures makes the rubber overheat and even possibly fold, overheated rubber is like butter in the frying pan

Theres some controlled highsides in this vid (not as noticable when we havent got as much grip as on asphalt tho): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bnx6HcN1xYs

Edit, second clip is a controlled highsider

 

[swatdoc]

Gary - I took a one on one class with you at Grange last july and had a great time. I did want a clarification on one thing you might have covered but I don't remember due to information overload!
My question is about downshifting while braking for an upcoming corner. I know you as a professional always use your clutch to modulate traction going into the corner. For myself, while trying to improve my throttle/brake control, I'd like to simplify things as much as possible and eliminate the manual clutch modulation for now. I do have a slipper on both my bikes. So my question is what would be the proper technique for downshifting while braking into a corner?
As you roll off the throttle and apply the brakes, would you pull in the clutch, downshift the appropriate number of times, then simply let the clutch out?
Or, can you just downshift without the clutch as you're braking into the corner?
Before everyone chimes in that I should learn clutch modulation and how to do it manually - I agree that would be ideal, but again I'm trying to simplify the learning process and concentrate on as few things as possible right now to help improve my throttle and brake control, which I think needs the most work.
Thanks Gary!

 

[Bran761G/77]

Gary - I took a one on one class with you at Grange last july and had a great time. I did want a clarification on one thing you might have covered but I don't remember due to information overload!
My question is about downshifting while braking for an upcoming corner. I know you as a professional always use your clutch to modulate traction going into the corner. For myself, while trying to improve my throttle/brake control, I'd like to simplify things as much as possible and eliminate the manual clutch modulation for now. I do have a slipper on both my bikes. So my question is what would be the proper technique for downshifting while braking into a corner?
As you roll off the throttle and apply the brakes, would you pull in the clutch, downshift the appropriate number of times, then simply let the clutch out?
Or, can you just downshift without the clutch as you're braking into the corner?
Before everyone chimes in that I should learn clutch modulation and how to do it manually - I agree that would be ideal, but again I'm trying to simplify the learning process and concentrate on as few things as possible right now to help improve my throttle and brake control, which I think needs the most work.
Thanks Gary!

now this is just me but, in a race i will only use the clutch on the start and in the dirt, on the asphalt its never touched(unless i can feel something going wrong I.E. crashing). i do have a quickshifter on the bike which allow it though.

 

[OlleR]

Gary - I took a one on one class with you at Grange last july and had a great time. I did want a clarification on one thing you might have covered but I don't remember due to information overload!
My question is about downshifting while braking for an upcoming corner. I know you as a professional always use your clutch to modulate traction going into the corner. For myself, while trying to improve my throttle/brake control, I'd like to simplify things as much as possible and eliminate the manual clutch modulation for now. I do have a slipper on both my bikes. So my question is what would be the proper technique for downshifting while braking into a corner?
As you roll off the throttle and apply the brakes, would you pull in the clutch, downshift the appropriate number of times, then simply let the clutch out?
Or, can you just downshift without the clutch as you're braking into the corner?
Before everyone chimes in that I should learn clutch modulation and how to do it manually - I agree that would be ideal, but again I'm trying to simplify the learning process and concentrate on as few things as possible right now to help improve my throttle and brake control, which I think needs the most work.
Thanks Gary!

I think you're doing it right. Having a slipper eliminates the need for manually slipping the clutch during braking.

On the supermoto I do not use the clutch except if I need to downshift more than one gear, I'm using a slipper. The rest is just throttle control.

On a twostroke motocross bike I use the clutch going out of corners sometimes, because the twostroke needs low rpms to get grip (and ofcourse high rpms to deliver power) and its hard to hit the right rpms without using the clutch.

If you're downshifting more than one gear you should use the clutch because it will damage the gearbox otherwise

 

[keithwwalker]

Thanks for the tips Gary! First time I was in your forum.

Last time I was at Beaver Run, there were two young kids who smoked everybody. They were masters at containing the momentum in the beginning of a corner, such that no one could keep up with them. Everyone else was snapping their throttles shut to 'back it in'. Meanwhile the two kids, never broke traction afaik.

Keith

 

[swatdoc]

OK Olle - so going into a corner from high speed to low speed where you'd have to downshift 2 or 3 gears, I assume the technique would be:
-roll off gas, apply brakes, and pull in clutch all at same time
-downshift 2-3 gears as needed
-let out clutch as soon as possible

with a slipper do I really need to worry about how fast I let out the clutch or can I just dump it? I would think you'd want to get the clutch back out as soon as possible for the engine to help in braking

 

[M Dubya]

Just now catching this thread for the first time. Thanks Gary and Ollie for the excellent insight! :thumbup::bowdown:

 

[OlleR]

OK Olle - so going into a corner from high speed to low speed where you'd have to downshift 2 or 3 gears, I assume the technique would be:
-roll off gas, apply brakes, and pull in clutch all at same time
-downshift 2-3 gears as needed
-let out clutch as soon as possible

with a slipper do I really need to worry about how fast I let out the clutch or can I just dump it? I would think you'd want to get the clutch back out as soon as possible for the engine to help in braking

Downshift to the gear you want to use out of the corner! I say this because some people take it as a rule that you should downshift two gears when you want to slide and they end up having to shift down before exiting the corner...

I used to let the clutch out as soon as possible but I have changed my riding style recently. I keep the clutch in as late as I can so that I have the best control of the braking as possible. While learning to slide it might be better to let it out as soon as possible but riding as fast as possible is a different story

With the slipper you shouldnt be concerned how fast you let it out, you can change this with the spring in the clutch.

 

[AussieDevo]

So, more straight line braking OlleR, then bring the back around for the corner at the last minute?

 

[OlleR]

So, more straight line braking OlleR, then bring the back around for the corner at the last minute?

Yeah thats right! Steering becomes quicker and you can brake later, you get better precision. I will set my bike to have as little engine braking as possible so that all slides are from either rear brake or me carrying a very high speed into the corner. (I've actually got the bike to slide with the engine braking from my CR250 twostroke!)

I slide less than I did before because you're not gaining that much from it if you can "run the bike in on the front wheel". I think its harder to enter a corner with the front wheel than to slide into a corner, so I slide when I get lazy... But I'm not like all the other children either

*Edit, oh another thing. If you're gonna ride it at world class level you need to end the slide earlier and run the last part into the corner on the front wheel. Earlier means that you haveto get it from no lean to almost max lean very quickly even tho you're sliding. Now thats a bitch...

**Edit, but thats not something a newbie should try. For a newbie/amateur rider its a good recipie for highsiding...

 

[AussieDevo]

Yeah thats right! Steering becomes quicker and you can brake later, you get better precision. I will set my bike to have as little engine braking as possible so that all slides are from either rear brake or me carrying a very high speed into the corner. (I've actually got the bike to slide with the engine braking from my CR250 twostroke!)

I slide less than I did before because you're not gaining that much from it if you can "run the bike in on the front wheel". I think its harder to enter a corner with the front wheel than to slide into a corner, so I slide when I get lazy... But I'm not like all the other children either

*Edit, oh another thing. If you're gonna ride it at world class level you need to end the slide earlier and run the last part into the corner on the front wheel. Earlier means that you haveto get it from no lean to almost max lean very quickly even tho you're sliding. Now thats a bitch...

**Edit, but thats not something a newbie should try. For a newbie/amateur rider its a good recipie for highsiding...

Do you think that your changing style has anything to do with the better chassis of the Aprilia? I ask, because I have heard a good rider say that before. With his CRF he felt he had to slide it in more, while with the Ape it was quicker to keep it in line.

A lot of this is well beyond my ability, but very interesting to hear. Not many of the quick guys talk about it.

Thanks.

 

[OlleR]

Do you think that your changing style has anything to do with the better chassis of the Aprilia? I ask, because I have heard a good rider say that before. With his CRF he felt he had to slide it in more, while with the Ape it was quicker to keep it in line.

A lot of this is well beyond my ability, but very interesting to hear. Not many of the quick guys talk about it.

Thanks.

I think we should put it this way to be correct... With the heavier aprilia you're not able to screw up as much as on a CRF. You haveto do it right from the start to be fast. I havent ridden a factory CRF but I've ridden a factory KTM 450 and the chassie is great but you still dont need the same kind of precision as on the aprilia (which is the fastest racebike I've ridden). You are allowed to do more mistakes on the lighter bike.

So yes it does matter which bike you're using. While we couldnt make the chassie work on the aprilia I slid everywhere to be able to get the bike to steer around properly.

I guess its Shane you've talked with. He was riding for the Alice Racing Aprilia team and when I got the parts for my bike they said that it was almost impossible to slide, which I later proved wrong (the S-slide is with pretty much the same stuff that was on Shane's bike).

BUT back then I wasnt riding it the fastest way. When you got the kind of grip we have you dont need to slide it around corners except some specific cases. The Aprilia is set up more like a roadracing bike than the other supermoto's. If you look at 2007 supermoto world champion Delepine's bike its stiff like a roadracing bike too! (and its not a Aprilia!)

And oh
Back when I was a newbie I would have loved to get help from people on the internet because I live atleast 6 hours from anyone I could watch and learn from. That, together with that I enjoy teaching, is why I'm here replying