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answer me this:
http://supermotojunkie.com/showpost.php?p=456939&postcount=1

1) is road race sag settings the same percentage of travel as MX is?

2) if not, what percentage for each?

3) if they are different, would proper supermoto sag be in the middle?

4) or would you take 70/30, on/off road in consideration, or split the two by 50%?

Im nearly clueless on suspension set-up and just trying to have a better understanding for the basics. thanks!

K.I.S.S.
 

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Roadracing sag is 5-10mm in my experience, I dont know the full travel, maybe 100-110mm? Should be easy to check tho.

The more static sag you use the more the bike will "unbalance" itself when you go from brakes to throttle and reverse, so its not that much about procentage of travel. I think this is the reason why Trachy empethize (spelling?) on being smooth going off throttle to brakes on. The more static sag you have the more acceleration will the suspension get in the stroke, making the suspension more compressed going on/off brakes, which is bad since its the wheel with the most force upon that will wash out in cornering.

How much static sag are the top guys in AMA MX using? In europe we're using less static sag than some years ago. 25mm to 35mm around here (I'm using 25mm). (1" to 1 2/5")
 

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answer me this:
http://supermotojunkie.com/showpost.php?p=456939&postcount=1

1) is road race sag settings the same percentage of travel as MX is?

To my knowledge percentages are the same across the board, the suspension guys I talk to said that all components are designed to function best in the middle of the travel.... so from my recent reading 25 percent seems to be the general starting point

2) if not, what percentage for each?

see above

3) if they are different, would proper supermoto sag be in the middle?

Yes, super moto sag will be in the middle.... Olle actually made a good point about setting up your bike for the track, Euro tracks can get away with stiffer set ups but in the US where some of the dirt sections are like super cross then we tend to lean more heavily towarsd the MX settings...my bike would be similar in set up to Olle's and Gary's, but my limited expertise in the dirt causes me fits with the stiffer suspension... So I set up my suspension for the asphault as the dirt is only a 1/4 of the track...:headscrat I might change that way of thinking soon as this season is getting close, meaning loosen up the suspension abit...

4) or would you take 70/30, on/off road in consideration, or split the two by 50%?

If its a street Tard then I would go with 90 percent road and 10 percent dirt only because the tire MFG's use that ratio when marketing most of their dual sport tires....



Im nearly clueless on suspension set-up and just trying to have a better understanding for the basics. thanks!

K.I.S.S.
I get most of my info from hours of reading on the internet as well from racing and hanging with guys like Gary and Olle, constantly picking their brains between heats or practice days....the biggest suggestion is what Gary made on the other thread about not being afraid to make adjustments while on the track to experiment which works best....I actually velcro a small slotted screwdriver to my bike and will pull off onto the infield to make adjustments then cut the track and for example try turn one again and again to see the differences....then work on other parts....thats when the track only has a couple guys on it....

I hope this helps...I'm far from an expert but decided when I raced my KX500 SM that subtle changes in suspension helped keep the back of the big green bike in check....decided to get smart after a couple dislocated shoulders...:lol:
I also have been very fortunate in that the guys who got me into this sport had really gained knowledge through trial and error....
The key for me is to keep asking questions to the "old pro" ;)
 

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I checked the travel for the Yamaha R6, its 4,7" (117,5mm)

Oh maybe I understood the question wrong, I'm still talking static sag. I dont know the race sag of a RR bike.

*Edit, checked race sag, its 25-30mm on a RR-bike, 21% that is, on a R6
 

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Roadracing sag is 5-10mm in my experience, I dont know the full travel, maybe 100-110mm? Should be easy to check tho.

The more static sag you use the more the bike will "unbalance" itself when you go from brakes to throttle and reverse, so its not that much about procentage of travel. I think this is the reason why Trachy empethize (spelling?) on being smooth going off throttle to brakes on. The more static sag you have the more acceleration will the suspension get in the stroke, making the suspension more compressed going on/off brakes, which is bad since its the wheel with the most force upon that will wash out in cornering.

How much static sag are the top guys in AMA MX using? In europe we're using less static sag than some years ago. 25mm to 35mm around here (I'm using 25mm). (1" to 1 2/5")
Olle, from your comment about unbalance do you find that If the load shifts or weight distribution goes more to the front wheel is it easier and requires less effort to back the bike into the corner...I understand your point about washing out, but what is your sweet spot...do you concern yourself more with the back end sag or pre load or do you concetrate more on the front settings...?
My MX set up is the same as yours....but I'm a Novice in the dirt....on a good day...lol lol .....as for the AMA I don't know....?
 

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The way it was explained to me by a Traxxion suspension tech.....road racers do not worry about Race sag. Only static or free sag.....and he said 0mm. Again that was for road racing.

For MX this helps determine if the proper weight spring is installed. In a nut shell if race sag is 100mm and static is 25-35 it is the correct rate spring. + static means the spring is to heavy....- static means the spring is to soft.

The more load that is transfered to the front from less static, the better the front sticks.


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Olle, from your comment about unbalance do you find that If the load shifts or weight distribution goes more to the front wheel is it easier and requires less effort to back the bike into the corner...I understand your point about washing out, but what is your sweet spot...do you concern yourself more with the back end sag or pre load or do you concetrate more on the front settings...?
My MX set up is the same as yours....but I'm a Novice in the dirt....on a good day...lol lol .....as for the AMA I don't know....?
My bike is the most extreme bike to back into corners out of the bikes I've tried out, you haveto ride it very aggressive to make it slide at all :) This is a positive thing because it means that it has more grip than any of the other bikes (it is more balanced than any of the other bikes). The only bike I've ridden that has been close is a factory setup KTM. What I'm saying with this is that you should allways struggle towards getting more grip, better balance. On asphalt we have no problems with the front end washing out in straight line braking, its only lifting the rear wheel. To counter this problem we dont want the bike to use too much travel during braking.

But we do want the bike to use the travel on the offroad part, and thats why it is important to choose the right person to shim the suspension.

The rear end is the most important, its what's carrying the bike. Front sag could be a little more, 10-20mm.

A lot of people are going to disagree with me saying this, but you should set the bike to be the fastest thing out there, not to suit the rider. The controls and in a certain part the power delivery, yes, the suspension and chassie, no, it should be set to awesome. ;)

I cant tell you too much about my bike out of respect to Alice Racing but it is steep, short and stiff. It has a incredible push from the V-twin but when I let people ride it they all come in saying "wow! What a incredible chassie! It steers like nothing else and you feel so secure riding it". Stuart at Alice Racing knows how to set the bike up properly, and I havent even got all of the pieces his bikes has!

If anyone disagree with what I say I'd like to hear it, and please tell me why :) Theres so much to learn and I'm far off from being a specialist :)
 

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Hey guys I just put a poll up int the other section about this more on the mechanical side of things. Is it possible to tune stock forks or shocks to an acceptable level, is aftermarket an must or too much of a liabilty because of the increased chance of damage (no one who's paid for an Ohlins out of pocket relishes the idea of dinging it). Chime in on my poll if you have anything to say and now I'm in on this also.
 

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The way it was explained to me by a Traxxion suspension tech.....road racers do not worry about Race sag. Only static or free sag.....and he said 0mm. Again that was for road racing
The tech was either lying to you or just stupid, you dont run 0mm sag for road racing, but yes free sag is more important that race sag.
 

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I like about 3/4 inch to 1 inch static sag.

When I ride, my times are really consistent. So, with testing I make a change....Do ten laps. I take the average lap time and the fastest lap time and see if it is faster or slower than the previous setups. The average lap times is best to make sure a change is a positive one because you can alway get one lucky lap here or there.

When it comes to going fast on a motorcycle, you can't leave anything to rest. You have to continue to find the next .001 of a second.

Please feel free to make suggestions or ask suspension questions here. I will try to answer them.
Is that sag front or rear or both?
 

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The tech was either lying to you or just stupid, you dont run 0mm sag for road racing, but yes free sag is more important that race sag.
My friend was a Traxxion tech and owned/operated the Traxxion center in Maryland. He was paid to travel with the Hooters pro RR team as the team suspension person.....not a stupid person. I may have misunderstood him but 5mm free sag is a lot closer to zero than the 20-25mm I was accustomed to in MX.

My initial changes for SM have been 90% focused to the forks. A lot more LSCD & LSRD to keep the movement slower and more controlled.

The comment about not using a MX suspension company.......(I do not know of any SM only suspension shops out there) A good suspension tuner (MX, RR whatever) will be able to adjust the valving to what you are asking for.


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Probably need a damper. I didn't need one, then ran a different profile front and got headshake under full-throttle. Damper cured it like a champ.

Barry
 

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First, make sure your wheels are trued and balanced.
Second, make sure you're running the correct air pressure.
Third, make sure your axle is seated correctly. (See the article in the current Supermoto Racer magazine).
Fourth, make sure your forks are evenly mounted.
Fifth, make sure your tires aren't worn unevenly.
Sixth, get a damper, if all else fails.
Seventh, take the frame to a place that can check it and straighten it, if necessary.
 

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My friend was a Traxxion tech and owned/operated the Traxxion center in Maryland. He was paid to travel with the Hooters pro RR team as the team suspension person.....not a stupid person. I may have misunderstood him but 5mm free sag is a lot closer to zero than the 20-25mm I was accustomed to in MX.

My initial changes for SM have been 90% focused to the forks. A lot more LSCD & LSRD to keep the movement slower and more controlled.

The comment about not using a MX suspension company.......(I do not know of any SM only suspension shops out there) A good suspension tuner (MX, RR whatever) will be able to adjust the valving to what you are asking for.


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I don't understand how free sag can be more important than race sag. you can have a race sag of 5mm but the difference between a 150lb rider and a 250lb rider would be huge. free sag doesn't take the rider weight into account at all...
 
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