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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
Hey guys,
'toomer picked up an extra rattle in the top end last weekend. this is an 04 625 w. just over 10K on it. Finally tore it down and found that my cam bearings are gone and my intake roller is probably gone too (feels "grainy"when i roll it compared to exhaust which is silky smooth). Also, it seems my exhaust rocker arm has a lil too much play so i probably need to shim that too (need to find a better way to measure the actual play though...feeler guage maybe?). I'm in the process of ordering up all the parts, along with everything to rebuild the water pump while I'm in there. I found the water pump thread on adv rider but haven't found anything too specific about re doing the cam bearings (parts needed mostly) Anyone want to chime in on my parts list? More? less? also, any thoughts on what you see in the pix or hints/tips, weird shit to watch out for while i'm doing all of the above?

(for anyone needing to do this, i wrote this sheet with formulas referencing the parts list for Water pump, valve drive and timing drive so you can just drop in the item# off the microfiche and it populates the rest- i'll send to anyone who wants to price shit out and stay organized)
More random pix here-http://s110.photobucket.com/albums/n98/flet2/KTM/KTM/

Parts list



Bearing was starting to eat into my rocker cover- the head looks the same. Is this bad enough to need replacing/machining or no? assuming with a proper bearing there shouldn't be any contact anyway right?




Cam looks OK to me- anyone see anything worth looking into? there is a slight line on the exhaust (closest to camera) lobe but doesn't seem like anything bad?



Rocker rollers-

 

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Damn that sux ,what year/milage?
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Damn that sux ,what year/milage?
'04 625SMC, guess i left that part out. just over 10K though the Prev. owner rebuilt the motor top and bottom at 2500 or so- did the rally cam as well so assuming it got new bearings then- seems like 8K its a pretty shitty life span for those parts but sounds like i'm not the first, or last to go through this. just glad i caught it before it ate itself alive completely.
 

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Yeah 8k is nothing on a lc4 ,if it was done up right noway it goes down that fast...hope you got everything sorted out this time.
 

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My first intake roller went at 13k, motor had never been opened up before that. Bad luck is all. The next roller went about 18k later. After that it has gone 31k more.
Some rollers fail some don't. I have a theory about oil supply so I run my oil to the top of the sight glass and maybe a little more.

I'd like to see the top of the intake lobe on the cam.

Very hard to tell by the pics, but it almost looks like the rocker cover was not torqued tight enough??? Looks like the bearings might have moved a little in there?

The rollers are(should be considered) consumable. Maybe 15 to 18k. Oil level is critical to getting oil to the top of the rocker box. Too little and a constant high seed run will eventually starve the rollers, rockers and cam bearings.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
My first intake roller went at 13k, motor had never been opened up before that. Bad luck is all. The next roller went about 18k later. After that it has gone 31k more.
Some rollers fail some don't. I have a theory about oil supply so I run my oil to the top of the sight glass and maybe a little more.

I'd like to see the top of the intake lobe on the cam.

Very hard to tell by the pics, but it almost looks like the rocker cover was not torqued tight enough??? Looks like the bearings might have moved a little in there?

The rollers are(should be considered) consumable. Maybe 15 to 18k. Oil level is critical to getting oil to the top of the rocker box. Too little and a constant high seed run will eventually starve the rollers, rockers and cam bearings.
It did spend some time with the oil level toward the low end (bottom line). It was leaking out the exhaust flange bolt which i have since sealed, and then was leaking out of the counter shaft seal which i have since sealed as well. (and now its leaking around my drain plugs too...never stops) I actually read one of your posts a while back and since then started trying to keep it at the top end of the sight glass. The bolts seemed to be torqued fairly consistently and not any too loose but who knows- I was thinking the same thing with the scarring on the cover around the water pump side-bearing must have been spinning in its seat a bit.
The Intake roller is still solid with no play that i can feel (other than slightly side to side on its shaft) but it feels "grainy" when i roll it so i know it's going, but probably not gone enough to hurt anything- I'll need to spin it away from TDC to get a pic of the other lobe though- i guess i can just do 2 full rotations and i'm at TDC-C again huh?
 

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No, I wouldn't spin it. When you take it out give it a good look. The top of the lobe would be the first place to show wear but really it looks to be good from the pics.

Leaking around the drain plugs??? You are using crush washers when you change the oil, right? I'm sure you are, so look very closely at the bottom of the case where it is recessed for the crush washer and make sure there isn't one already stuck in there. Two crush washers stacked together may be causing a leak?

The lateral play you feel is normal. The gritty feel is not, as you have already stated.

The four center rocker cover bolts are of different lengths and obviously 2 different sizes. If a short bolt went into a deep hole maybe it did not torque appropriately? If the bolt length did get messed up, look them up on a fisch. The fisch usually has a description of the bolt relative to the position in the diagram. The description will usually reveal the length, diameter and thread pitch. I use Munn's link for the fisch. And I almost always by my parts form them, good people.
 

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You know, looking at that cam pic suggests you may not be at TDC. You should have the same amount of lobe show equally between the intake and exhaust. Maybe it's the ralley cam, IDK?

Does you timing chain sprocket have a mark or marks on it that line up with the top of the cyl head. Mine doesn't have any, some have 2 and others have one(usually at the forward end of the motor) Anyway, those marks when lined up with the top edge of the cyl head where it mates with the rocker cover shows the motor is either at TDC or BTDC.

IIRC, right after the auto decomp clicks you are very near approaching TDC.

There is also a mark on the cam that will line up with a mark on the timing chain sprocket. Look for that when you reinstall the cam.

The cam just lifts out, little bearing first, after you have removed the water pump, cam bolt, and timing chain tensioner. You must pay close attention to the service manu while reassembling these parts. Creepers guides, you found over on ADVrider, have lots of tips in them as well.

Being at TDC is paramount to removing the water pump.
Do you have a service manu?
 

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Since this thread has to do with valves (indirectly) has anyone done a compression check as a method to check the valve seating?
What I'm getting at is this bike I just bought has very blue exhaust manifolds and I know it has been jetted, but I can't help but wonder if some valve damage may have already been done from being way too lean at one time. :headscrat This bike runs great, but it doesn't seem to have a whole lot of topend and maybe that is normal for an LC4. :hmmm: Anyone know what the compression should be and would that tell me if all is good or bad without yanking the head off? :rolleyes:
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
No, I wouldn't spin it. When you take it out give it a good look. The top of the lobe would be the first place to show wear but really it looks to be good from the pics.

Leaking around the drain plugs??? You are using crush washers when you change the oil, right? I'm sure you are, so look very closely at the bottom of the case where it is recessed for the crush washer and make sure there isn't one already stuck in there. Two crush washers stacked together may be causing a leak?

The lateral play you feel is normal. The gritty feel is not, as you have already stated.

The four center rocker cover bolts are of different lengths and obviously 2 different sizes. If a short bolt went into a deep hole maybe it did not torque appropriately? If the bolt length did get messed up, look them up on a fisch. The fisch usually has a description of the bolt relative to the position in the diagram. The description will usually reveal the length, diameter and thread pitch. I use Munn's link for the fisch. And I almost always by my parts form them, good people.
For the drain plugs I'm using the copper looking washers that were on there but I've been through several oil changes on the same washers so i think i just need fresh ones...i may have flipped one upside down last time too- it's not bad at all but there is definitely some oil sneaking out so just one more thing to deal with :rolleyes:

I'll take a good look at the cam once it's out but i think i caught it just in time. Any suggestion on measuring the play in the exhaust rocker arm? it has about twice as much play as the intake so I'm sure a shim wouldn't hurt- i guess i just leave the 1MM shim on the 1 side and adjust the other shims until it's close?
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
You know, looking at that cam pic suggests you may not be at TDC. You should have the same amount of lobe show equally between the intake and exhaust. Maybe it's the ralley cam, IDK?

Does you timing chain sprocket have a mark or marks on it that line up with the top of the cyl head. Mine doesn't have any, some have 2 and others have one(usually at the forward end of the motor) Anyway, those marks when lined up with the top edge of the cyl head where it mates with the rocker cover shows the motor is either at TDC or BTDC.

IIRC, right after the auto decomp clicks you are very near approaching TDC.

There is also a mark on the cam that will line up with a mark on the timing chain sprocket. Look for that when you reinstall the cam.

The cam just lifts out, little bearing first, after you have removed the water pump, cam bolt, and timing chain tensioner. You must pay close attention to the service manu while reassembling these parts. Creepers guides, you found over on ADVrider, have lots of tips in them as well.

Being at TDC is paramount to removing the water pump.
Do you have a service manu?
I'm about 99% sure i'm at or damn close to TDC-C- i followed creepers guide and listened for the 'clack' then used a straw to pinpoint it- i think the pix are misleading because their at weird angles and yes, it is a rally cam too. Also, i was able to feel the play by hand in the rocker arms while i was still in the 'valve check' stage so i know there is no pressure on the cam/rockers.
The bike is in my dads garage so i can't look for alignment marks and no, i don't have a manual other than the stock owners manual that comes with it. I found one to buy online or maybe i can find a torrent and 'borrow' it.
what do you think of my parts list? i have everything i need plus some right? do i need any of the extra washers for the cam though?
 

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For the drain plugs I'm using the copper looking washers that were on there but I've been through several oil changes on the same washers so i think i just need fresh ones...
Yeah, you'll probably want to go ahead with new crush washers. They're cheap and usually in stock at most KTM dealers, or if you're placing an order to Munn or one of the others-- remember to get one or more for each of the 2 drain plugs.

You can attempt to re-anneal the existing ones, if you're really pinched, by hanging them on a wire, heating them up with a propane or MAPP and dunk them in water to soften them up (opposite of steel). But if yours is currently leaking, the washers may have more issues than just being too hard... (that's what she said! :lol:).

Bryan
 

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Yes, feeler gauge for the lateral play.

One side has the 1mm spacer that has to be there to keep the rockers from hitting the cover then you shim the other side to correct for lateral play. Creeper's guide lists the tolerances.

You need a manu! You can get one on line fro repair manuals or something. It covers a range of years for the LC4. I'll link it up when I get home.

The list looks pretty good but I didn't go over it closely, I will later tonight.
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
Yes, feeler gauge for the lateral play.

One side has the 1mm spacer that has to be there to keep the rockers from hitting the cover then you shim the other side to correct for lateral play. Creeper's guide lists the tolerances.

You need a manu! You can get one on line fro repair manuals or something. It covers a range of years for the LC4. I'll link it up when I get home.

The list looks pretty good but I didn't go over it closely, I will later tonight.
Assuming you're thinking of this one? i'll probably get the CD then just print the pages i need for whatever project i need to tackle at the time.
http://www.repairmanual.com/category/2004-ktm-625-smc/
Thanks for the info Tim- i'll get back there later in the week or this weekend and try to scope for alignment marks on the cam sprocket etc. I think i read in another thread that the mark on the sprocket is hidden behind the chain so i'll keep an eye out for that. My dads friend is a mechanical guru- not KTM's specifically, but the guy sure knows engines so i think i'm gonna enlist his help- he has better tools, press and general knowledge that will certainly help me do this correctly!


Yeah, you'll probably want to go ahead with new crush washers. They're cheap and usually in stock at most KTM dealers, or if you're placing an order to Munn or one of the others-- remember to get one or more for each of the 2 drain plugs.

You can attempt to re-anneal the existing ones, if you're really pinched, by hanging them on a wire, heating them up with a propane or MAPP and dunk them in water to soften them up (opposite of steel). But if yours is currently leaking, the washers may have more issues than just being too hard... (that's what she said! ).

Bryan
Yup, i'll be picking up some spares while i order all these other parts from Munn- sucks i just ordered valve cover gaskets and oil gaskets last week (hoping my noise was just a loose set of valves) so this time i'll probably just order 2 of everything from A-Z cuz you know i'll need it eventually!
 

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Looks like your pretty well covered. I bought new copper seals for all the rocker box bolts. Then saved the old ones for future repairs. I don't think they really go bad as they don't see much pressure. I re-annle my crush washers all the time. Heat em up, not bright red, but dark red and let em cool. My teaching was copper is crystal and would expand and stay if not cooled fast. Ie not quenched in fluid.
Yep, that's the manu. I'm a paper guy so that's what I went with. If you need some particulers before you get it hit me up.

I'd get a crush for the came chain tensioned as well as a gasket. Easily reusable but it never hurts to have one on hand. Actually I usually buy twice what I need just so I have spares.

If this is afu its because I did it on my cell.
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Looks like your pretty well covered. I bought new copper seals for all the rocker box bolts. Then saved the old ones for future repairs. I don't think they really go bad as they don't see much pressure. I re-annle my crush washers all the time. Heat em up, not bright red, but dark red and let em cool. My teaching was copper is crystal and would expand and stay if not cooled fast. Ie not quenched in fluid.
Yep, that's the manu. I'm a paper guy so that's what I went with. If you need some particulers before you get it hit me up.

I'd get a crush for the came chain tensioned as well as a gasket. Easily reusable but it never hurts to have one on hand. Actually I usually buy twice what I need just so I have spares.

If this is afu its because I did it on my cell.
Turns out the tensioner crush is the same as one of the drain plug washers so i grabbed a handful of those. Just ordered my parts- $178 from Munn so should be under 2 bills shipped. hopefully i don't have to do this again at 20K...that's only 2 years down the road at my mileage rate...
thanks again for the help tim, you're a great resource for us junkies :thumbup:
i'll update once i get my parts and start making moves- probably start by breaking the pump down this weekend just to get a bit of a jump on it atleast.
 

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The water pump is a good start. You also need to work on getting the bearing and roller out of the rocker arm.
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
The water pump is a good start. You also need to work on getting the bearing and roller out of the rocker arm.
How does the rocker arm shaft come out? i haven't looked too closely but it seems to only have a little hole in it, is there special too XYZ that pulls it out, or am i just missing something? Planning on going somewhere with a press to pull that roller bearing out and to replace it- i can't see myself having success "persuading it" with a punch and hammer...
 

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Take a look at this thread from a couple of weeks ago. I posted some pics in there of the socket and vice method. The vice works perfectly as a press.
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
Awesome info! I had thought about the vice idea actually but didn't think a socket would work so was worried about keeping a punch or something square in the vice. I think i'm going to sears to buy some misc. deep sockets for the water pump fix anyway so i'll make sure i have some small sockets that will work too.

I assume the bearings need to be pressed onto the cam as well? i guess i'll cross that bridge when i get there. Lucky for me i picked up an SV650 last summer so i can ride while i wait to get the KTM sorted. definitely miss that shit eating grin it puts on my face though :D
 
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