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Discussion Starter #1
I'm designing some dirt sections (not my place to say what tracks, that will be up to the track / promoter when & if they become reality) so I was looking for some input as to what the racers would like to see in a dirt section. Obviously I have to work with space constraints and financial limitations.
IMO most dirt sections are too MX oriented but that seems to be what the US racers want. I know that people didn't like the whoops @ Beaver last fall to begin with and were happier once one was removed so they could triple / double them. The tabletops seem to be popular. I kind of liked Beaver's entry & exit jumps with the vertical face that forced everyone to jump instead of rolling them (I didn't care for them after I broke my ribs and had to jump them though).
Do you want big jumps with lots of air or more technical stuff?
Bermed turns seem to be popular, although I like at least one flattrack style turn. I don't care for off camber turns with slicks though.
Would you like to see more than one dirt section? One long dirt section or 2 shorter ones?
Anyhow, what are y'all's wish lists of dirt sections? I'll see if I can incorporate some of it into the limitations that I have to work with.
 

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I'm designing some dirt sections (not my place to say what tracks, that will be up to the track / promoter when & if they become reality) so I was looking for some input as to what the racers would like to see in a dirt section. Obviously I have to work with space constraints and financial limitations.
IMO most dirt sections are too MX oriented but that seems to be what the US racers want. I know that people didn't like the whoops @ Beaver last fall to begin with and were happier once one was removed so they could triple / double them. The tabletops seem to be popular. I kind of liked Beaver's entry & exit jumps with the vertical face that forced everyone to jump instead of rolling them (I didn't care for them after I broke my ribs and had to jump them though).
Do you want big jumps with lots of air or more technical stuff?
Bermed turns seem to be popular, although I like at least one flattrack style turn. I don't care for off camber turns with slicks though.
Would you like to see more than one dirt section? One long dirt section or 2 shorter ones?
Anyhow, what are y'all's wish lists of dirt sections? I'll see if I can incorporate some of it into the limitations that I have to work with.
Good looking out. I do believe this is a move in the right direction. At least with everyone giving their opinions, it will make for a better dirt section at the track that is to come. Also, for those who didn't take the time to give their opinions, then I guess they really shouldn't complain if they don't like it! Right?
 

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I come from more of a road racing back round and I am geting older, so I do not like the triples and doubles. For some one of my skill I rather see table tops. I think tables are better b/c you can still make them big enuf for the guys with MX back round yet us old and broken riders don't have to worry about getting run over or casing a doubles. If you make the dirt section a bit easier you might have bigger turn outs at supermoto events instead of us taking out our supermotos to bigger race tracks.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
If the dirt sectins become any easier.....I will have a Sumo bike for sale.
Please expand upon this since easier is a relative term. I need a little more input as to what you're looking for in order to try and design something that will be challenging enough for experienced riders and yet not too intimidating for newer ones.

Edit: be specific if you guys want. I have the designs for every SX track the AMA ran last season, most of the SM tracks ran in the last 3 years, several European SM tracks & a variety of roadrace tracks here in the US & Europe. A lot of the designs I found included detailed prints so I can duplicate quite a bit of what you've seen in Pro races.
 

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I think that any jump over 30 feet should probably be a tabletop, for safety's sake. For me, I like tabletops because of that factor, but I can (and will) jump a 60-70 foot gap. (Then again, I still race motocross when I get the feeling to do it.) I also like whoop sections because that's where I get to pass people!:thumbup::rolleyes:

Turns should be a variety. You can have a bowl turn with a flat inner turn so that you get the choice to rail the outside or flat track the inside.

I think a good example of a dirt section is what is at OVRP (unless they have changed it) or any of the ones from Europe. Three or four turns, a couple of jumps, a whoop section and maybe a couple of kickers here an there. That's sufficient for most tracks and racers.
 

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I think that SuMo should be a cross between roadracing and motocross, not supercross. To many tracks have giant whoops, huge doubles, and even triples. That's just wrong. Look at european tracks, they're less about bravery and more about skill. I know spectators love giant triples. That's why the AMA puts them in. But I'm not doing this for spectators, I'm doing this for fun. Think it's too easy? then you're not going fast enough. I would rather see lower jumps, rougher terrain, and more speed. And turns that have a berm aroung the outside and just slightly banked on the inside is a good idea as well.
 

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The E-town AMA track was VERY nice and I wish it stayed. It was a nice little bump in to a right hand berm, a small double leading into a two lane left hand flat track style turn and a jump leading you onto the pavement. After a short little pavement section, you went into the current dirt section which is a berm in, triple, table, double and another table. Maybe a step-up would be a nice addition but other than that, you just need to keep it so it has rhythm.
 

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obstacles seperate good dirt riders from great dirt riders. this is supermoto, asphalt and dirt with jumps, on one tire (slicks). do the road race guys like the dirt and jumps, not really. do the mx guys complain the asphalt is too fast, never. this is a muti-discipline sport it create champions by being good at both the dirt and asphalt that in itself is the premise of the sport. if you dont like the dirt, work at it to get better and more comfortable, or go road racing, or ride on the street. (sorry to be so harsh, not my intent really).

do they need to be huge? NO. but they do need to be there. it seperates the skill levels and classes. the jumps all should be rollable even doubles. including the entrance and exit ramps at BR. helps the begginners and intermediates get the nerve up to advance their skill level at THEIR pace no one elses. rollable jumps should be manditory just from a saftey and liability stand point for ALL riders, promoters, and track owners. no one has ever seen a great rider miss a jump and need the availability to roll the obstacle?

a good double double section is a thing of beauty once you master it. hate to harp on it but, mark burkhart helped design circlville ohio's dirt section, and everyone including kids on minis, and even my wife can run the dirt with the doubles, rolling everything if need be. the doubles are about 3.5-4.5 feet high and i am not sure the length between but they are nice to roll, single, or double up. good track to go look at to see how it flows.

it would be nice to get local tracks to beef up their dirt sections to prepare those interested in racing at the national level. otherwise when we get there, we are getting our butt handed to us by those prepared for bigger obstacles. again doesnt mean we eliminate the doubles or step ups, ect... just means the designer needs to make the track easy enough for someone who has never jumped anything in there life, and technical enough for intermediate and advanced riders to challenge and prepare themselves for advancement of skills.

and yes this can be done. the small whoop type jumps and sections are not compatible with slicks and stiff asphalt suspensions we have in the bikes we ride for this discipline. and they intimidate the lesser skilled riders. now take those small tee pee looking whoops, spread them alittle make them taller and rolled soft at the top. now a skilled rider can double, and a less skilled rider can roll them. like my good friend ross perot used to say, "problem addressed, problem solved"

my .02 ski
 

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95% of all riders do it for fun and go to work on monday. many of us don't need to run the same track as wardy and all the fast guys. table tops are great, make them long that way some will roll them and some will clear them. just my thoughts.
 

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I like the smaller doubles and table tops. I think whoops are good as long as the are done right. I liked the BR whoops before and after the removal of one. I don't care for the flat landings at the entrance and exit of the dirt. I think two dirt sections would be cool as long as it doesn't make up more than 40% of the track. I liked the dirt section at the final round last year. Too bad we didn't get to use it! It looked really cool but I wasn't able to try it out like some did. I think a good mix of table tops, short rollable doubles and small whoops makes it interesting. I'd love to see some small urban-cross ramps put together for ESMRA to take to all the rounds. I'm sure someone has the capability to buidl some and donate them to ESMRA. That way, when the dirt is still to wet from rain, we could still have a couple of jumps on our pavement-only races. just my .02
 

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Great topic

Last year was my first year racing supermoto and I was generally disappointed most dirt sections except the two national tracks I rode.

I applaud who ever designed and built the beaver dirt section because it took some time and effort and was better then most. I enjoyed the steep whoops but agree they were a little much for a beginner. Every sm track should have whoops. A good solution is to make the sections longer with smaller whoops. This makes the whoops sections safer and still gives passing options. The biggest problem with the beaver dirt section for me was the small double and tables in the back. You had to slow down when jumping the to avoid and extremely hard flat/uphill landing.

E-town has the most difficult jump in all of our series. I don’t hear anyone complaining about it. The triple in to the dirt section, I only know of two people who jump it clean. That is because it is a well-designed triple. Most people double or single it, rhythm sections are the secret to well designed supermoto dirt sections. They should allow you to go a big or small as you want.
 

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Discussion Starter #13
I'd love to see some small urban-cross ramps put together for ESMRA to take to all the rounds. I'm sure someone has the capability to buidl some and donate them to ESMRA. That way, when the dirt is still to wet from rain, we could still have a couple of jumps on our pavement-only races. just my .02
That's another topic. I'm only working on the dirt section for one track, which is what this thread was about. The other track I'll be designing completely (once I delve deeper into it I'll ask for comments on the paved section). I already have the material and have a rough sketch for an urban jump, all I have to do is start welding it together. However it will just be for my home track since I don't feel like hauling it all over the East Coast.

The feedback is great and just what I wanted to hear. Keep it coming.
Thanks.
 

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I just want more tracks with dirt sections in the mid atlantic. As it is now, we have to drive 3-4 hours just to find a track that sometimes has a dirt section. I'll take whatever you got as long as I have access to it!
 

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Great thread! BTW.......Andrew Hyder built the last Beave Run dirt section.

My perspective is obviously much higher than most as it comes directly from Pro MX & Supercross. I never raced a SX myself but raced select 500 Nationals in the mid 80's. My SX background is from years of wrenching there. I personally have been shocked at how easy every dirt section is......including the Pro SM's........ Short of the X Games.

Every SM track I have been to is simple compared to 99% of the local MX tracks.

Any track is about flow. Every landing jump is well rounded so if you come up mega short and case it you roll over it instead of stopping.

I recommend every rider put dirt wheels on and go take a MX class from a professional MX teacher.....you will become a faster and safer rider! I highly recommend Gary Bailey. I have taken his classes 7 or 8 times and have learned something new every time.

I wonder if Gary Bailey would offer a special school for SM?
 

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obstacles seperate good dirt riders from great dirt riders. this is supermoto, asphalt and dirt with jumps, on one tire (slicks). do the road race guys like the dirt and jumps, not really. do the mx guys complain the asphalt is too fast, never. this is a muti-discipline sport it create champions by being good at both the dirt and asphalt that in itself is the premise of the sport. if you dont like the dirt, work at it to get better and more comfortable, or go road racing, or ride on the street. (sorry to be so harsh, not my intent really).

do they need to be huge? NO. but they do need to be there. it seperates the skill levels and classes. the jumps all should be rollable even doubles. including the entrance and exit ramps at BR. helps the begginners and intermediates get the nerve up to advance their skill level at THEIR pace no one elses. rollable jumps should be manditory just from a saftey and liability stand point for ALL riders, promoters, and track owners. no one has ever seen a great rider miss a jump and need the availability to roll the obstacle?

a good double double section is a thing of beauty once you master it. hate to harp on it but, mark burkhart helped design circlville ohio's dirt section, and everyone including kids on minis, and even my wife can run the dirt with the doubles, rolling everything if need be. the doubles are about 3.5-4.5 feet high and i am not sure the length between but they are nice to roll, single, or double up. good track to go look at to see how it flows.

it would be nice to get local tracks to beef up their dirt sections to prepare those interested in racing at the national level. otherwise when we get there, we are getting our butt handed to us by those prepared for bigger obstacles. again doesnt mean we eliminate the doubles or step ups, ect... just means the designer needs to make the track easy enough for someone who has never jumped anything in there life, and technical enough for intermediate and advanced riders to challenge and prepare themselves for advancement of skills.

and yes this can be done. the small whoop type jumps and sections are not compatible with slicks and stiff asphalt suspensions we have in the bikes we ride for this discipline. and they intimidate the lesser skilled riders. now take those small tee pee looking whoops, spread them alittle make them taller and rolled soft at the top. now a skilled rider can double, and a less skilled rider can roll them. like my good friend ross perot used to say, "problem addressed, problem solved"

my .02 ski
What this guy said saves me alot of time. I like a challenge to better myself not necesaary race. I'm 47 an I still want to learn. I also want to get a work out instead of sitting on that seat all day. Sumo is a cross between all diciplines....maybe not SX... but out door MX type stuff fits the bill very well. He's on the money except for the Ross statement.....LOL.....that guy was a kook!!!
 

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just to clarify steves statement, andrew helped design the dirt section with feedback while onsite. the track and the operators built the dirt section at BR. dont want to add to or take anything away from anyone. just a clarification. it is a pretty decent dirt section can it be improved yes, does it fit beginners or minis? no. but we have a nice dirt section and a great facility there and i cannot wait to go back there. ski
 

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I have been racing SM since the end of '05 and motocross for years. I am into jumping big "IF IT IS SAFE AND WILL LIVE TO TELL SOMEONE I DID IT!!!:D" But in my opinion...just my opinion... I feel we ALL need more of a challenge. I have been building motocross tracks for years here in CT with many different designs that have to accommodate all levels of riders and safety, but for me the dirt is where I have MY advantage over all the road race guys. There is a give and take in SM and we ALL need to work on what we are not good at. Yes we all have to go to work on Mon but if you were that worried about it then why are you racing at all! Don't intend to sound harsh either but fact is fact. There are limits to everything and each person knows there own. Every dirt section should have some easier and some harder obstacles for different skilled riders. I think as long as it is all safe no one should complain.:thumbup:
 
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