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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
are there any good tips for helping to up mid corner speed? i've been working on my lines and have mostly eliminated the defensive line habit. i definitely keep my elbows down a bit, so i realize that already.

looking at my rear tire, i know that i can have higher entry speeds with more lean on the slide. if you look at one side of the tire and then divided it into thirds, i would say the middle-to-upper third region is the most worn from sliding.

are there any good BP techniques, line selection, or exercises some of you faster track guys know of that might help corner speed other than just...going faster? i think a slight change in mental approach to braking for certain corners might help, so i'm curious if any of you will bring that up to confirm my theory.

i have pictures if need be to give you some evidence of my BP and such.
 

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are there any good tips for helping to up mid corner speed? i've been working on my lines and have mostly eliminated the defensive line habit. i definitely keep my elbows down a bit, so i realize that already.

looking at my rear tire, i know that i can have higher entry speeds with more lean on the slide. if you look at one side of the tire and then divided it into thirds, i would say the middle-to-upper third region is the most worn from sliding.

are there any good BP techniques, line selection, or exercises some of you faster track guys know of that might help corner speed other than just...going faster? i think a slight change in mental approach to braking for certain corners might help, so i'm curious if any of you will bring that up to confirm my theory.

i have pictures if need be to give you some evidence of my BP and such.
Well one thing can be sliding ...lots of people focus too much on backing it in, but sliding effectively for good corner speed is very difficult ...the reason is that rookie sliders don't lean very much, so instead of a U shaped line you get a V shape in corner entry ...also braking too late can give you the same result, people often brake to the apex, then it's allready time to accelerate ...try to start slow, well below your skill level, forget about backing it in and just focus on lines and fluidity ...try to flow nicely, brake very early, enter the corner wide, fluently pass from braking to leaning (that's the most vital part), then you accelerate and pick the bike up, again in one smooth motion ...practicing this in slow speed will make it easier to do right ...then pick up your speed gradually, but try to focus on remaining smooth and correct on the lines
...as always a video would help make the diagnosis more accurate, but I'm preety sure it's the sliding that is messing up your entry and consequently corner speed...
 

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Discussion Starter #3 (Edited)
I can get you some video, but my brake line will be in the way the whole time. i did a pretty poor job planning my camera placement last time out. you should be able to see enough to tell where the corners are and such though. i'll try and get that up later tonight.

i totally agree with what you're saying. i find myself often times mid corner realizing i could be going faster. there are two specific corners i want to focus on since i think they are where i'm having the most issue. here's a trackmap of where the video is from:


T1 and T3 are my biggest trouble zones (both double apex).

T1: Last time out, I was able to try and slide less and carry more corner speed by only dropping one gear instead of two off the straight. that helped alot. that T1 is very tricky because 1B tightens up a bit going into T2A.

T3 I just have a slow entry and again can't seem to get consistent speed through A-B while still being able to turn in properly for T3B. I do not slide at all going in this corner.

i'll have video up later tonight for you. :cheers:
 

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Great thread and some good points - I need to redo my approach - I come in to tight and take the defensive line which kills me mid corner and forces me on the gas later - I am always worried about the "up the inside" when thinking of sweeping it in wider
 

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Discussion Starter #5
when i'm trying to turn a fast lap, in my head i put more emphasis on being hard on the brakes than being quick mid corner. i have no trouble moving my braking closer to the corner, but getting off the brakes to a respectable corner speed is a real issue. here are two videos. first is from the last time i rode my old bike, and was doing what were some of my quickest laps on that bike. second video is my most recent riding, from just this past weekend. pay attention at 1:00 in the second video. i was trying pretty hard in that video to carry some more corner speed and ended up in a two-wheel chatter situation. that video is probably some of the best corner speed i had all weekend...and after watching it i still think it sucks :lol:

 

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when i'm trying to turn a fast lap, in my head i put more emphasis on being hard on the brakes than being quick mid corner. i have no trouble moving my braking closer to the corner, but getting off the brakes to a respectable corner speed is a real issue. here are two videos. first is from the last time i rode my old bike, and was doing what were some of my quickest laps on that bike. second video is my most recent riding, from just this past weekend. pay attention at 1:00 in the second video. i was trying pretty hard in that video to carry some more corner speed and ended up in a two-wheel chatter situation. that video is probably some of the best corner speed i had all weekend...and after watching it i still think it sucks :lol:
Yes, it's exactly as I thought :D ...from the first video I see your lines, the good ol' V shape in entry or in other words a straight line towards the apex
...from the second vid I see you have a nice brake hose :D ...aside from that, your leaning confirms the hypothesis, you have very little lean all the way to the apex and then you obviously can't turn the bike, lean or be on the gas early...try braking early and focusing on a wide, CURVED line in entry..
...I think there are 3 big comfort zones in becoming a better rider:
1. being comftable on leaning (that is to be on the edge of grip and be in perfect controll, with constant speed) - that's the first and easiest one, it's the base for the other two ..you can learn it anywhere by just leaning the bike further and further and repeating until comftable, falling like this doesn't hurt
2. being comftable on powersliding (that is to have controll when the rear tyre slides and drifts) - that one is harder, you probably will get mildly hurt in the learning process (learning not to close the throttle when it slides), but knowing that one will make you much faster and more consistent (I fully learned this one this year)
3. being comftable on braking (to be on the edge of the front tyre grip on braking) - that one is the stuff of world championship riders

...anyway are you comftable on leaning to the edge of grip? ...if not you need to do those excercises (braking very early) that much more, because all this "I must brake at the last possible moment" often inhibits learning that and messes up the lines completely in entry ...again try braking early, focus on lines, start turning into the corner later and faster ....and USE ALL THE TRACK, I see you often don't, again you need to go slow to see all of that ...for learning leaning parking lots are ideal or you can allmost not brake on the track and just try to lean on the corners as long as possible, getting progressively lower...

This is my onboard from a small track, but you should be able to see the difference in lines and lean straight away (how much track I use and where and how I lean in corners) ...I'm no world champion, but I still can find my way around a track:
 

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Discussion Starter #7 (Edited)
oh wow. now that i see your video, even my newest video (where i thought i had shaken some of that V line habit) really shows i still bee line for that apex a bit. definitely will need to work on that.

the lean angle: the past few times i've seen pictures from the track i could see this too. i'd always see pictures and think "wow, i really felt more leaned over than that". my rear tire wear indicated lack of lean angle too. but, i guess pictures don't lie. i will focus on my lean angle as well.

another thing i notice after watching you video a few times is that the guy in front of you, and based on the lack of tire squeal i'm guessing you as well, don't slide the rear very far. you're more leaned over when you slide than i am, but it's no more than 6inches off line with the front. that's interesting to see. i have a slipper, but i usually use the rear brake to try and help extend my slide closer to the corner. i'm thinking i might try and ride with little to no rear brake and see how that goes?

i have tried the parking lot exercise like MVD shows on youtube on my last bike, i will have to give it a shot on this one to get more acclimated.

my next trackday is in two weeks. hopefully i'll have some more video to show that i've gotten better at these things.

thanks for the help. i really appreciate it. some good tips and instruction are hard to come by in the supermoto community! :cheers:
 

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You make a few mistakes it looks like that are going to really effect your corner speed.

Just some things I noticed:

  • You start to drift in from the outside of the track before turn in, you're paying for the track might as well use _all_ of it. The more track, the greater the radius through the turn, the faster you can go.
  • When you do start to turn in, it's a "lazy" turn in. The bike doesn't get to max lean angle until the apex.
  • You don't track out all the way, same as at turn in, if you're leaving track on the outside you can go faster. That should give you the confidence that you aren't going to run off the track.
Some thoughts from watching the video and studying the track map:

I'd call T1 a "decreasing radius" more than I would a double apex, although I've never driven the track Have you tried driving T1 with only a single apex? With a cornering plan something like this:
Stay far track right. Right up against the wall to give yourself as much space to work with in the turn while braking. Trail off the brakes and lean it in with the plan being to trail brake through the first part of the corner and late apex right around where the "B" is. The bike should be standing back up and on the gas before the apex most likely.

Try to set your line up coming out of T2A So that you're right along the inside curbing (track left) at the exit for T2B. This will give you the widest entry into T3A. The T3 complex does look like a double apex, so there is a chance of there being 2 steering inputs don't fret about trying to get it in one.

Make sure you're far track right at the braking zone and turn in point for T6 and turn it in crisply, from looking at the map I'd say it's the second most important corner on the track. So it's important to get good speed through it and drive out of it. The way to optomize that is (with out lap or segment timing) look at what gives you the fastest speed as you come into the braking zone for T8.

T8 is the most important corner on the track. T8 really marks the beginning of the front straight T9 and T10 are just bends in the straight. For T8 if you look you can really see that you're starting the braking and turn in from mid track. That's giving up so much room and speed. T8 appears to be slightly increasing radius as well, but because of T9 it's going to require a late apex so that you don't track out of T8 much past mid track.

Man I really need to get down there on the SMR, all of these opinions are subject to change after riding it.
 

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I drew up a "theoretical line" as I tried to describe it above. The drawing is a bit rough but hopefully it serves to help visualise the writing above.

 

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Discussion Starter #10 (Edited)
You make a few mistakes it looks like that are going to really effect your corner speed.

Just some things I noticed:

  • You start to drift in from the outside of the track before turn in, you're paying for the track might as well use _all_ of it. The more track, the greater the radius through the turn, the faster you can go.
  • When you do start to turn in, it's a "lazy" turn in. The bike doesn't get to max lean angle until the apex.
  • You don't track out all the way, same as at turn in, if you're leaving track on the outside you can go faster. That should give you the confidence that you aren't going to run off the track.
Some thoughts from watching the video and studying the track map:

I'd call T1 a "decreasing radius" more than I would a double apex, although I've never driven the track Have you tried driving T1 with only a single apex? With a cornering plan something like this:
Stay far track right. Right up against the wall to give yourself as much space to work with in the turn while braking. Trail off the brakes and lean it in with the plan being to trail brake through the first part of the corner and late apex right around where the "B" is. The bike should be standing back up and on the gas before the apex most likely.

Try to set your line up coming out of T2A So that you're right along the inside curbing (track left) at the exit for T2B. This will give you the widest entry into T3A. The T3 complex does look like a double apex, so there is a chance of there being 2 steering inputs don't fret about trying to get it in one.

Make sure you're far track right at the braking zone and turn in point for T6 and turn it in crisply, from looking at the map I'd say it's the second most important corner on the track. So it's important to get good speed through it and drive out of it. The way to optomize that is (with out lap or segment timing) look at what gives you the fastest speed as you come into the braking zone for T8.

T8 is the most important corner on the track. T8 really marks the beginning of the front straight T9 and T10 are just bends in the straight. For T8 if you look you can really see that you're starting the braking and turn in from mid track. That's giving up so much room and speed. T8 appears to be slightly increasing radius as well, but because of T9 it's going to require a late apex so that you don't track out of T8 much past mid track.

Man I really need to get down there on the SMR, all of these opinions are subject to change after riding it.
so i should be at mat lean before i get to the apex, and actually riding through the apex at max lean?

T1: i think that's worth a shot. it's going to be tricky to do and get the exit right, i think. are you referring to more of a clipping point here, than an apex?

T3: i was definitely trying to force my turning into one input. i'll try not to get hung up on that.

T6: that's actually (as you can see in the video) an uphill, negative camber turn. very tricky. i could certainly swing that one out wider.

T8: i definitely do not get a consistent wide entry. gotta work on that one.

bottom line from both of you so far: turn in later+faster, more lean angle, use more track.

edit: thank you for the track map. i can see the difference with my current lines. i wish i could go out and practice these new lines right now!
 

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so i should be at mat lean before i get to the apex, and actually riding through the apex at max lean?

T1: i think that's worth a shot. it's going to be tricky to do and get the exit right, i think. are you referring to more of a clipping point here, than an apex?
So in the "car" world at least. The apex point is the part of the corner where you hit the inside curbing right. In a "late apex" the most amount of turning is going to actually occur before the "apex" itself.

T3: i was definitely trying to force my turning into one input. i'll try not to get hung up on that.
It might be possible, but I'm not sure if it'd be the fastest. With the straight there between the 2 corners a roll on / roll off and 2 steering inputs might be better.

T6: that's actually (as you can see in the video) an uphill, negative camber turn. very tricky. i could certainly swing that one out wider.
Neg camber is scary...

T8: i definitely do not get a consistent wide entry. gotta work on that one.

bottom line from both of you so far: turn in later+faster, more lean angle, use more track.
Well. Defiantly turn in later and "faster" and by faster I mean get to your target lean angle quickly. You'll find the that with the right line you'll be using less lean angle for a given speed because the radius of the turn you're taking can be bigger.

It's more important to be slow and on the line than fast and off of it. So go out there and focus on being smooth and on the line, the speed will come all by itself once you're on the right line and hitting it super consistently.

Something else to think about, how good are your reference points. Knowing what you want to do every lap isn't going to work with out knowing exactly where you are on the track and where you want to be.

That being said, this is all way easier to say than do. I might be an advanced group driver in the car, but I struggle with some of the same stuff on the bike.
 

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so i should be at mat lean before i get to the apex, and actually riding through the apex at max lean?
At the actual apex you'll be standing the bike back up and throttling out in a late apex. The goal is to get to your max lean angle as quickly after you hit your turn in point as possible to carry as much speed through the corner.

Watch some motogp and note how quickly they turn it in and how early in the corner they're knee down.

This won't really apply to T1 because it's a decreasing radius so you'll be adding steering all the way through, or keeping the lean angle the same and dialing in the arc of the corner with trail braking.
 

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This is a good discussion and exactly where i know im losing time! Last day out i was trying some golden tyres and the front really wasnt working for me BUT here is a video(same track and day from keiths brake line video). I feel like my issue is due to lack of trail on the front(stock offset triples) but until i remedy that problem i really don't know. my line choices i think will get better with more confidence in my front end. The reason I say that is because on the same track in colder weather on my drz on DOT tires i was able to get 42s lap times. On my rmz im in the 40-41 range but it just doesnt feel as solid or easy to ride. Its a lot of work. Because of this i feel my self lugging the gears and staying in a higher gear when i should be revving out the lower gears. For instance i go into turn 1 drop it down into 1st gear then click 2nd on the exit when i should stay in 1st. On my drz i was going 4th-2nd into turn1 then clicking 3rd.


my issues is front end feed back/traction. That day i lowsided twice by losing the front.

Here is a video from last year on my drz. The DRZ is almost 60lbs heavier, less power, no suspension work(stock S model suspension), rubber brake line etc. The rmz has had the suspension redone and sprung for me, running slicks, slipper, upgraded caliper and lines etc.



Id like to see what you think since we are on the topic:)
 

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Discussion Starter #15 (Edited)
For instance i go into turn 1 drop it down into 1st gear then click 2nd on the exit when i should stay in 1st.
last weekend on the KTM i was running from 4th down to 2nd and then back up to 3rd at exit on T1. I tried just going down one gear to 3rd on entry...definitely faster. i slid less and it eliminated the lost time with the upshift was eliminated. maybe you should try just going down to 2nd and skip that upshift at exit. might get similar results?

also keith if its at all helpful this video was back from my first trackday last oct. You come into the vid about 8:40-10:40.
i think that was also my first trackday. we both had better lines on our DRZ's :lol: watching your video from last weekend, it looks like we have nearly identical lines and problems.
 

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My first 3 sessions I went 3rd to 2nd and it felt slower. I wanted to try and keep it in 1st but I kept shifting. By going to 1st I could drive in deeper to the turn and use the slide to scrub speed. My lap times were about 1sec faster by going to 1st.
 

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oh wow. now that i see your video, even my newest video (where i thought i had shaken some of that V line habit) really shows i still bee line for that apex a bit. definitely will need to work on that.

the lean angle: the past few times i've seen pictures from the track i could see this too. i'd always see pictures and think "wow, i really felt more leaned over than that". my rear tire wear indicated lack of lean angle too. but, i guess pictures don't lie. i will focus on my lean angle as well.

another thing i notice after watching you video a few times is that the guy in front of you, and based on the lack of tire squeal i'm guessing you as well, don't slide the rear very far. you're more leaned over when you slide than i am, but it's no more than 6inches off line with the front. that's interesting to see. i have a slipper, but i usually use the rear brake to try and help extend my slide closer to the corner. i'm thinking i might try and ride with little to no rear brake and see how that goes?

i have tried the parking lot exercise like MVD shows on youtube on my last bike, i will have to give it a shot on this one to get more acclimated.

my next trackday is in two weeks. hopefully i'll have some more video to show that i've gotten better at these things.

thanks for the help. i really appreciate it. some good tips and instruction are hard to come by in the supermoto community! :cheers:
I'm glad people find it helpfull, I never found anything when I was a beginner, so I decided to try and give others that possiblitly ...in our parts it's hard to get anyone to listen to you if you're not Hermunen :D
I saw frog gave you some good tips, I won't get track-specific, that's up to you guys to figure out, I'll speak for riding in general, so you find your way around when you visit other tracks

Yes, we both slide the back out relatively little, because it is useless to get super sideways (watch the world championship, no one does) ...you just need a little angle to turn your bike in the corner and relieve the front from turning (it makes it easier to brake) ...another thing is, the most vital part for lap times and corner speed is the transition from slide to corner ...it's seriously difficult to get the bike off the slide without that little "bumb", if you know what I'm referring to ...a huge flashy slide is hard to controll and hard to put in the corner neatly, without stopping to much ...and braking-wise a large slide angle vs. a small one offers exactly 0 advantages for anything

Do try to use less rear brake, b-cause it has an underhanded psychological effect: it's makes you think there is less grip than there actually is ...if you sqash it too much the rear gets loose and you think there is not much grip and you tend to lean less, you also unconciously brake with the front less ...focus on the front brake!
 

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Discussion Starter #18
I'm glad people find it helpfull, I never found anything when I was a beginner, so I decided to try and give others that possiblitly ...in our parts it's hard to get anyone to listen to you if you're not Hermunen :D
I saw frog gave you some good tips, I won't get track-specific, that's up to you guys to figure out, I'll speak for riding in general, so you find your way around when you visit other tracks

Yes, we both slide the back out relatively little, because it is useless to get super sideways (watch the world championship, no one does) ...you just need a little angle to turn your bike in the corner and relieve the front from turning (it makes it easier to brake) ...another thing is, the most vital part for lap times and corner speed is the transition from slide to corner ...it's seriously difficult to get the bike off the slide without that little "bumb", if you know what I'm referring to ...a huge flashy slide is hard to controll and hard to put in the corner neatly, without stopping to much ...and braking-wise a large slide angle vs. a small one offers exactly 0 advantages for anything

Do try to use less rear brake, b-cause it has an underhanded psychological effect: it's makes you think there is less grip than there actually is ...if you sqash it too much the rear gets loose and you think there is not much grip and you tend to lean less, you also unconciously brake with the front less ...focus on the front brake!
i will actually be visiting a new track my next time out, so this is very good criticism.

i do know of the bump when transitioning from slide to corner, especially when trying to do it with high speed. unless you slow way down it is very difficult to do seamlessly.

i have never heard the "unconsciously brake with the front less" idea. that's interesting, i have never even thought of that. also the perceived lack of grip when sliding to far. these two points are very interesting to me. i am sure they are totally true, just never knew that. these are some of the very things i was hoping to learn!

again, thanks for the help. :clap:
 

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Do try to use less rear brake, b-cause it has an underhanded psychological effect: it's makes you think there is less grip than there actually is ...if you sqash it too much the rear gets loose and you think there is not much grip and you tend to lean less, you also unconciously brake with the front less ...focus on the front brake!
What do you think the lap time penalty on the average SM/Kart track by not really backing it in? Just all front brakes with rev matched down shifts trying to be super smooth?
 

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This is a good discussion and exactly where i know im losing time! Last day out i was trying some golden tyres and the front really wasnt working for me BUT here is a video(same track and day from keiths brake line video). I feel like my issue is due to lack of trail on the front(stock offset triples) but until i remedy that problem i really don't know. my line choices i think will get better with more confidence in my front end. The reason I say that is because on the same track in colder weather on my drz on DOT tires i was able to get 42s lap times. On my rmz im in the 40-41 range but it just doesnt feel as solid or easy to ride. Its a lot of work. Because of this i feel my self lugging the gears and staying in a higher gear when i should be revving out the lower gears. For instance i go into turn 1 drop it down into 1st gear then click 2nd on the exit when i should stay in 1st. On my drz i was going 4th-2nd into turn1 then clicking 3rd.

my issues is front end feed back/traction. That day i lowsided twice by losing the front.

Here is a video from last year on my drz. The DRZ is almost 60lbs heavier, less power, no suspension work(stock S model suspension), rubber brake line etc. The rmz has had the suspension redone and sprung for me, running slicks, slipper, upgraded caliper and lines etc.

Id like to see what you think since we are on the topic:)
I made almost the exact same transition last year, DRZ400S with Conti SM's to a KTM450SMR with Dunlop slicks.

I absolutely positively beyond a shadow of a doubt had to slide to the very front of the bike. Nuts to the gas tank cap. When I did that the front felt great. I can see in the video you're riding on the back half of the saddle. Tape a rag to the seat to give yourself a bump to keep reminding yourself to stay forward.

With the DRZ I could just set in the middle of it, even rode it knee down instead of foot out. Know way I could do that on the SMR it'll push the front all over the place.
 
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