SuperMoto Junkie banner

21 - 39 of 39 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,775 Posts
Aaron,

Thanks for the reply. I believe these motors are designed to be at 20* forward, but seeing as yours is still in the bike, it should be easy to measure :D

I was basically looking for the overall foot print of the motor to see if it will be worth fitting. Including the width (pic with blue lines) and the offset of the front sprocket from the center.

-Alex
No problem, when I first started thinking about this project I asked the same questions and couldn't get any answers either here or on Kawi forums dedicated to the 650 so I finally decided I would just buy one and if it wasn't realistic to do the swap keep it as a loaner bike for when friends from out of town visit.
Width should not be an issue at all. The forward tilt may be if there isn't room in the frame which would require frame modification, I'm also curious to see if the exhaust will clear the frame. But since, among other things, I am a welder / fabricator I'm not worried too much about frame cutting / welding. My major concern was the offset of the counterchaft sprocket from center, but any issues there could be solved with offset sprockets in a worst case scenario, or with slightly offsetting the engine in the frame if it is a minor issue.
I'm planning on an inline fuel pump so that I can retain a (semi) stock tank. Other than that my major concern is finding someplace to hide the battery.
I have the 560, new black body parts (except tank), ordered the Black Mamba headlight from Motostrano yesterday, new black and orange wheels have been in the garage for 2 years waiting. Still need turn signal / hand guards / mirrors & rear turn signal / taillight combo. I'll actually take the 560 parts out and put them in a 525 frame (no motor) that I have so that I can still race it.
I'll get the measurements later this week, I have classes every night.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,119 Posts
Discussion Starter #22
No worries, I can wait. I appreciate your time!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,775 Posts
Aaron,

Thanks for the reply. I believe these motors are designed to be at 20* forward, but seeing as yours is still in the bike, it should be easy to measure :D

I was basically looking for the overall foot print of the motor to see if it will be worth fitting. Including the width (pic with blue lines) and the offset of the front sprocket from the center.

-Alex



OK, since I'm impatient and want to know the answer to everything right now I did some quick measurements.
Overall width of the motor is around 16" at the widest point.
Overall length front to back at the widest point is around 16"
Overall height at the tallest point is around 20"
Cylinders appear to be in the neighborhood of 19.2* according to my smart level.
Center line of engine to center line of chain is around 4.75"
The exhaust may be an issue there is about 2.5" between the pipes, my frame has a single downtube which splits to allow the thumper exhaust to exit. If the 650's exhaust is above the split then good to go, if below the split then I'll have to add to the downtube and subtract from the "Y".
Bad news is that my KTM frame appears to be too short front to back by a couple of inches. Good news is that the factory KTM race bikes used swingarms that were 1.9" longer to increase wheelbase so stretching the frame 2" should actually be beneficial to handling (not withstanding the revised F/R weight ratios and swingarm angle). I appear to have enough height to make it work and if more is needed I could relocate / redesign the brace that limits the height.
The perfunctory look appears to be positive with any modifications doable. I'll be interested to see how it pans out once I pull the engine and can actually start trying to fit it in.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,119 Posts
Discussion Starter #24
:bowdown::clap:

Thanks Aaron, that is a huge help! I'm away from my bike currently, but can't wait to measure it out. My yamaha has in frame oil circulation which makes it a little bulky but I can hopefully chop that out if I have clearance issues. The split in my frame is a lot lower so the exhaust can exit before the "y" (the reverse of yours) so that might work to my benefit.

-Alex
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,775 Posts
:bowdown::clap:

Thanks Aaron, that is a huge help! I'm away from my bike currently, but can't wait to measure it out. My yamaha has in frame oil circulation which makes it a little bulky but I can hopefully chop that out if I have clearance issues. The split in my frame is a lot lower so the exhaust can exit before the "y" (the reverse of yours) so that might work to my benefit.

-Alex
If we get these things up and running we need to meet somewhere around the NC / VA border and check out each others handi-work. :thumbup:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
7,786 Posts
I know you have already formed an opinion about the "dirtbike" engine, but I would highly recommend looking into swapping a 426 or 450 engine into your bike. You have a very nice looking 400 and I don't know why you are having those problems with that engine. I ride my 426 at least 6 days a week and it has been very reliable (and no, I'm not nice to it at all). Like Steve said the 450 is not bad either (but the one I thave is fairly recent, so I'll spare my comments lol). You might be better off just selling what you have and starting over with a new bike altogether since your fabrication costs are going to add up. Just my $.02.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
240 Posts
Motor swaps are cool. No doubt about it but if you really want to take the bike on trips why are you screwing around thinking about swapping in some engine and changing the entire setup of the bike to try to make it do something it was never designed to do?

Why not just get a g650gs, f650gs, xr650r, xr600r, ktm640, drz400, or something like that if you really want to travel with a dirtbike type vehicle and have a reliable engine. A lightweight dirtbike with a heavy reliable motor sounds a whole lot like a 600 class ds to me. A yz400 with a er6n motor would probably be just as heavy, perform about the same, cost twice as much and handle worse than a dead stock 600 something or the other.

75% blowby sounds like a easy ring/valve top end job to me. If you repair that, sell the bike, and use the proceeds towards the bike that would be better for traveling I think you would be happier in the long run.

It would be really cool but I just don't see the point. Sorry if I have come across as a kill joy.

Google Katamaki if you get the chance. It is a long thread about a guy wanting to swap a er6n motor into a ktm640 adv chassis. He scrapped the project last I checked but maybe you can get the info you want and it might help you decide one way or the other.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,426 Posts
Agreed. Cool no doubt, but something like a 650 ninja motor in it would just make it a 650 ninja.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
593 Posts
just my 2 cents here but supermotos are bikes changed over from their intended use. doing something different it what made supermotos. im pretty sure any supermoto you buy was originally designed to be a dirtbike not a streetbike. if you want to do a motor swap do it.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,775 Posts
Motor swaps are cool. No doubt about it but if you really want to take the bike on trips why are you screwing around thinking about swapping in some engine and changing the entire setup of the bike to try to make it do something it was never designed to do?

Why not just get a g650gs, f650gs, xr650r, xr600r, ktm640, drz400, or something like that if you really want to travel with a dirtbike type vehicle and have a reliable engine. A lightweight dirtbike with a heavy reliable motor sounds a whole lot like a 600 class ds to me. A yz400 with a er6n motor would probably be just as heavy, perform about the same, cost twice as much and handle worse than a dead stock 600 something or the other.

75% blowby sounds like a easy ring/valve top end job to me. If you repair that, sell the bike, and use the proceeds towards the bike that would be better for traveling I think you would be happier in the long run.

It would be really cool but I just don't see the point. Sorry if I have come across as a kill joy.

Google Katamaki if you get the chance. It is a long thread about a guy wanting to swap a er6n motor into a ktm640 adv chassis. He scrapped the project last I checked but maybe you can get the info you want and it might help you decide one way or the other.
Not being a kill joy at all, everything being discussed is hypothetical and all opinions are valid at this point. Once the project is complete "the proof is in the pudding" so to speak. The er6n motor is the smallest and lightest of its class, it is substantially smaller and lighter than even the EX500 motor. At the end of my project my bike will be lighter than the dual sport adventure bikes you are referring to, al of them are heavy pigs (sorry to offend anyone who owns one).
The er6n motor is also worlds apart in reliability and performance from the thumper motors too. It comes stock with 60ish HP. Simple mods to make it breath better get you close to 70 HP. If you want to drop a little money into it you can push high 70's HP and still retain reliability. The top roadracer and flattrackers using the er6n platform are getting mid 90's HP with some rumors of a tad over 100HP, of course reliability suffers at those numbers.
I don't know of any SM engine pumping out 70 HP and being reliable. Heck the er6n has 30,000 mile valve adjustment intervals.
Once I get the engine out of both bikes I will put them on a scale and see exactly how much weight differential there is. In any event I am ready to make some pudding. :D


Edit: Thanks for the Katamaki suggestion. That leads to several threads on advrider with completed bikes doing this swap. One of them had before and after weights of the bike and on a KLR the engine swap added 10 pounds to the bike. I can live with 10 pounds for the added HP and reliability.

Edit 2: er6n engine with all related motor mounts is 127 pounds ready to run.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,119 Posts
Discussion Starter #31
You all have very valid points.

Crash: That was the very first thing I thought of. Unfortunately those motors are going for the same ebay prices as the ninja motors and normally the "wrecked" ones getting parted on c-list are totaled due to blown motors. I figured if I was starting new to make it worth while. I am pretty much broke paying for school and I know I will never get back what I have into this 400. I have a welder etc so the fabrication costs will be free. All I need is time. I figured the last 4 years this bike has hardly left my bedroom so what's another few on top of that while I swap motor?

lstzephyr: I do not race or motorcross etc. This is primarily a street bike for me with the occasional romp in the woods and dirt, though I will be doing a lot more of that and "adventuring" with a more reliable bike. As Aaron mentioned, the motor is small and lightweight. It will have ~15 more horsepower than my yamaha in a modded state and will be infinitely more reliable. I have read that thread you mentioned completely through, which is why I was looking for dimensions before I make any definite plans.

Currently I have a few ideas floating around. The head of the bike was just completely overhauled which is why I was questioning the 75% leak down. The shop it's at has given me bogus information before so I'm beginning to wonder if they are just feeding me numbers hoping I will allow them to rebuild the bike $$$$. I spoke with the guy who rebuilt my head. He stands by his work and will be taking it back and assessing the condition. If it is good, I might just do rings and ride or sell the bike. If it is bad I might just part it out and get a street bike and 125 2 stroke to satisfy my offroad desires. Before that I want to look at motors as I know I will take a heavy loss parting it out and that's if I do well.

If I can get a donor ninja, I can part that bike out and come even with cost, or close to it. If a motor swap looks like too much headache, and parting it out looks like too much of a loss. I might get a 250 2 stroke motor to but on (pretty much bolt up) and use that as a selling point.

Who knows. Like laohu said, they all just ideas at this point.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
144 Posts
There is a YouTube video of an er6n engine in an aprillia SXV. One of the posts said it weighs 170kg (375lb) wet that is 62lbs over stock wet weight! Surely that is a typo? I couldn't imagine that engine being that much heavier.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
240 Posts
just my 2 cents here but supermotos are bikes changed over from their intended use. doing something different it what made supermotos. im pretty sure any supermoto you buy was originally designed to be a dirtbike not a streetbike. if you want to do a motor swap do it.
True. An engine swap is not a wheel swap though. I travel on a xr650r with cbr wheels though so I'm with you on that. However the vast majority of the machines functions are still the same from a supermoto vs dirtbike standpoint.

I'm all for Frankenstein bikes. The custom stuff is pretty awesome and maybe I'm wrong. If you had said that you had multiple bikes and wanted a project(like laohou) I would say it's great but since you said you are broke and just want to ride then starting a major project sounds like a bad idea.

I think a better option would be a flat track twin cylinder frame with the ninja motor. Something withthe width for the motor and was designed to take that kind of power. Have you thought about the stresses your chassis will go through?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,119 Posts
Discussion Starter #34
Again, valid points.

You are right, I do just want to ride, but if I can do it cheap, I see no problem having it sit another year + doing a swap as I haven't really ridden it so far. If I do it right I can do it for free and only put in my time.

As far as the chassis, I do not think it will be a problem. The power is close enough and will probably be smoother. The weight will not be a problem as the bike is rated for more. It was designed to be ridden hard offroad and raced, and I bet it would see far more stress during those times than my leisurely supermoto rides.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
913 Posts
I just saw a bike on craigslist that would make a kick ass swap for your bike. Back in the day Kawi made a Kz750. But this had a twin like the ex500.
Its on craigs for 300 and no title. Im far from you ( NJ ).If you make the drive I have a 426 frame with a MSO you can fit the engine into
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,119 Posts
Discussion Starter #36
Thanks for the help, but that engine looks huge! Also, I already have the frame etc.

Still not sure what to do, but cutting my losses and parting it out is looking good as people want so much money for motors and various pieces which means I could come out with enough money to put towards a new bike.

Once work cools down I'm going to measure the frame to see if the 650R motor will even come close.


-Alex
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,119 Posts
Discussion Starter #37
Well I finally made time to measure my frame and there is no way the kawi 650 will fit without extensive modifications. I had ~12" in every direction.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
913 Posts
how about an XR650/600 TT/XT/SR 500/600 or even KLR600 motor.
I saw some euro guy make a super sano TT660 motor work in his alumium frame WR
He was good at what he did.


Steel would be easier to fit I would think. There must be some kind of old reliable big single out there with no title.
Its a shame to part your bike
What is wrong with your bike? Did it chuck a crank?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3 Posts
just my 2 cents here but supermotos are bikes changed over from their intended use. doing something different it what made supermotos. im pretty sure any supermoto you buy was originally designed to be a dirtbike not a streetbike. if you want to do a motor swap do it.
Ok so what street course was the hypermotard 1100 made for and what swap do I need to put in it to show them how fast it should be
 
21 - 39 of 39 Posts
Top