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The corner you painted is ok if the straight is very short and theres a right hander comming up very shortly after the first corner. If AMA riders do every corner like that I will have no problem passing down the straight :D

This is how I do a U turn on asphalt with a long enough straight in both directions. Where red transfers to green I go down to the highest lean angle for the corner and after that lean decreases and throttle increases. Apex is late to get a good acceleration out of the corner

Found a paint of when you want to brake deep when I added the first file so I'll attach that too.
 

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Where is the apex?

OK, maybe I just wanted to draw a picture too, or maybe I got mixed up in the semantics. I assumed that the apex of the turn is the part of the turn with the tightest radius. I have, however, heard people say it's where you come closest to the inside of the corner.
It could be that both are true, just our pictures suck.
Anyway, in my picture (turning from right to left) I would say the the blue line is an Early Apex and the red line is a Late Apex. That would be with the green hash being the apex of the turn.
The other case being calling the apex where you are closest the center (orange hash) then the blue would be the Late Apex.

So, which is it?
 

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OK, after a bit of Googleing and reading I see I was way off base.
Please disregard my previous post.
It really is all about where you start your turn; push it in deep before you start the turn = late apex.
 

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It doesnt really matter when you're riding

I am sorry for mixing it up

I think me and Gary has the same thought of how the corner should be done, just different explainations

The most common explaination of apex is where you are the closest to the inner part of the corner
 

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Gary & OlleR, explain the transition from hard braking to backing it in please. On a fast straight away, how much brake are you applying when the rear kicks out? Have you eased up on the brakes much by then? What about the forks, what are they doing during this transition? Thanks.
 

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Gary & OlleR, explain the transition from hard braking to backing it in please. On a fast straight away, how much brake are you applying when the rear kicks out? Have you eased up on the brakes much by then? What about the forks, what are they doing during this transition? Thanks.
I ease up the brakes as I go into the corner but when I initiate the slide I'm on the front brake as much as in a straight line. Its a very fine line from overcooking and sliding out and staying in control when you are hard on the front brake. Most of the time its not worth the effort but sometimes it really is :)

Forks are loaded but I think they might extend a little when you get the wheels out of line. I havent done any research on it tho.

The higher speed (in km/h, mph) the easier it is to slide because you get more time to do it :)
 

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So still a bit confused about what trail braking is other than what I should be switching to before the apex.
 

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Discussion Starter · #28 ·
Trail braking is the final braking as you enter the corner. It is a small amount of brakes...that keeps the bike compressed and balanced. If you go hard into a corner and stop braking at your turn-in point the bike will start to decompress and become harder to turn.
 

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Discussion Starter · #30 ·
i have a question on performing down shift.

(assuming you have a slipper)

when do you begin down shifts?

do you use the clutch?

what about more the one down shift, do you perform them as quick/smooth as possible?
This is a good question and there are different ways to approach this. I like to downshift as I am going into the corner 1 gear at a time, matching the gear with the speed I am going. So, if I am in 5th gear down the straight and am going into a corner that I will exit in 2nd, I will downshift 3 times, once when I start my braking and 2 more, one at a time as I get closer to the apex. I like doing it this way because I am always matching actual speed with gearbox speed and thus am never in the wrong gear. I do not count my gears up or down as I ride because I only worry about being in the right gear at any given time.

Another way people do it with a slipper is pull the clutch and drop all the gears at once. In the same senario as above the rider would be in 5th gear, when he started to brake, he would pull in the clutch and instantly hit down 3 gears. Then you would feed the clutch out as you aproach the corner again matching the ground speed with how much the slipper clutch can compensate the difference. Again, I do not do it this way because it involves counting gears and I have never done that.

Good Luck and I hope this helps!:thumbup::thumbup:
 

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and with out the slipper clutch? (did I mention that having this as a way to learn the basic idea of techniques is awesome and thanks for taking the time :bowdown::bowdown::bowdown:) From the 5th gear to 2nd? drop gears as you slow down into the turn bit by bit using engine braking to the fullest and never coasting on the clutch right? or is the deceleration supposed to fast enough that you are going in 5th then brake and drop gears and bam you at the apex in your second gear and ready to rock out of it? (I cant think of how I do it now, I will pay atention next set of turns i drop into)
thanks
 

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Discussion Starter · #32 ·
Without a slipper it would be the same process as I use...downshift as you get closer to the corner. The clutch work is to match the wheel speed with the ground speed. With a slipper it does it for you...with no slipper you need to slip the clutch yourself. If you pull the clutch in too much as you are entering a corner, you will pick up speed and probably go past where you want to be. If you do not slip it enough you will get rear wheel chatter. The art is finding the sweet spot and mastering the clutch without a slipper. You feed the clutch into the corner always matching the ground speed and the rear wheel speed. I hope that help or answers your question.
 

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Darn this automatic log out thing!

So my second try.

For experienced riders it is fine to use trailbraking and sliding the rear to get the bike piointed. However, to become a master, you first have to be a student. So i would like to give some more info more beginner related.

First some clarifications:

Start braking point: Where you start letting of the throttle and start getting on the brakes. Not binary, but analogous. Les throttle means more brake and vice cersa.

End braking point: Your Start braking point is determined by this. This is where you are done with braking and are ready for turning. And transitions from brakes to throttle

Turn in point: Where you make the BIGGEST steering change. This is where you go from (alost) straight up to full lean, as quickly as possible to not waste time and space.

Apex: Where you are closest to the inside of the turn.

This is how i would recommend beginners approach their turns:

It would indeed be wise to start any riding with as little braking as possible and only use throttle. Be relaxed and try to take up as much of the road as possible. Where are bumps, cracks, etc etc. Camber, good pavement, bad pavement. Radii of the turn etc. This is where you fisrt make your plan for a given turn.

You have to first determine your end braking point, turn in point and apex before actually riding the curve full stop.

Coming to a turn, this is what it should/ could be: (with a constant radius corner, no camber, or other variations to keep things simple)

You've determined your end braking point. This means that for your speed you will have to determine a start braking point. This start braking point depends on your speed. One lap you could approach the turn (a lot) faster or (a lot) slower. Your end braking point remains the same. Your start depends on your speed. Do as much braking in the beginning of your braking and with the bike as straight up as possible. Get most of the braking done in about 2/3. leaving 1/3 for correctly setting your turn entry speed. Beeing lighter at the end of braking makes it easier to correclty judge your speed and therefore correctly adjust your speed.

At the end of your braking point should also be your turn in point. When beginning, you could leave some room between the two, to relax and judge your sped and give more time to perform the different tasks. At first keep your turn in point as late and wide as possible. In riding there should be no coasting. you are either braking or accelerating. However, for beginners, after braking, open enough throttle to maintain a constant speed. Even if it is only for a fraction of a second. At your turn in, you try to get your bike turned as quickly and as much as possible. With dry, warm pavement and sticky tires. Slam it in. Cold, wet, muddy. Be easier. But be confident. As you increase lean angle, you MUST increase throttle. When you lean over, the effective rolling radius of the rear wheel will decrease. This means that if you keep constant throttle, you WILL decrease speed.

At your turn in point, you will try to square off the corner as much as possible. This is the transition from the radius you have following the outside of the corner, to the increasing radius you will have afterwards, going to your apex and the outside of the corner. After your turn in point, you should be as close to maximum lean angle as quickly as possible an be pointing to your apex. Keep the apex late, this will decrease the time you will be leaning over at maximum angle. After the turn in is completed and you ar at full lean. You should be able to increase throttle, and decrease lean. If you cannot increas throttle, your line was not correct.

I deliberalty kept sliding the rear and trailbraking out. At first i would suggest to keep things neet and the transitions "easy". As you become more confident and experienced. Your job is to get the entry to the corner closer to the inside. Because with a wide entry, you leave a lot of room to get passed. But for beginners, the other competitors are not relevant. You yourself are your biggest competitor. So you gradually but your end braking point closer to your apex. This way you can get the entry closer at small intervals, Instead of trying to keep it tight right from the start and feel rushed and anxious and lot of oppertunities for errors. You will eventually be turning in, while still on the brakes and stop braking, just before the apex to constantly open the throttle.

Hope this makes any sense.

Best regards,
Thanas
 

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Escort Bayan

If you get on the brakes early and slow too much, you have to get back on the gas just to have enough speed to make it to and thru the corner. And no matter how smooth you are, whenever you brake or apply throttle you are upsetting the chassis to some degree.

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Escort Bayan
 

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Without a slipper it would be the same process as I use...downshift as you get closer to the corner. The clutch work is to match the wheel speed with the ground speed. With a slipper it does it for you...with no slipper you need to slip the clutch yourself. If you pull the clutch in too much as you are entering a corner, you will pick up speed and probably go past where you want to be. If you do not slip it enough you will get rear wheel chatter. The art is finding the sweet spot and mastering the clutch without a slipper. You feed the clutch into the corner always matching the ground speed and the rear wheel speed. I hope that help or answers your question.
I was watching your video again and I'm still confused. (DRZ 400, no slipper clutch). In order to downshift for a corner I have to disengage the clutch, right? That means freewheeling some of the time, right? Are you saying you don't disengage it all the way even for downshifting? :headscrat

For me, a timeline drawing of a corner would be nice. Example, the corner would have a number 1 (approximately)where throttle is reduced, then a number 2 where brakes are applied, then a number 3 where clutch is disengaged, etc. So I know (approximately) in what order and for what duration I'm supposed to do what.

We don't get enough practice time in Wisconsin. :D
 

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I was watching your video again and I'm still confused. (DRZ 400, no slipper clutch). In order to downshift for a corner I have to disengage the clutch, right? That means freewheeling some of the time, right? Are you saying you don't disengage it all the way even for downshifting? :headscrat
You may disengage the clutch for a downshift, true, however you don't need to completely re-engage the clutch immediatly, but progressively engage it at it's slipping point, on-downshift-halfway, on-downshift-halfway, keeping the clutch from freewheeling completely, having part of it engaged and dragging on the engine allows you to simulate the effect of a slipper clutch with your left hand, using your rear brake allows you to slow the rear wheel speed closer to the clutch speed, and closer to the engine speed. Using the rear brake is important to keep constant decelleration while slipping the clutch to allow the drive train to match speeds and also to slow the engine with the effect of the rear brake aswell.

Remember the design of the clutch and the engine and the sprocket - a multi-plate oil bath clutch is designed to operate in an analog (meaning variable engagement) manner effectively.

You could simply downshift without the clutch operating - but you would lock the rear wheel and loose control - so the clutch lever partial engagement for slipping the clutch also works for the rear wheel to move independent of the engine but in a way that it is related according to the degree that you are slipping your clutch.

:hmmm: I hope this helps you reflect on the process your bike experiences while you ride.
 
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