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This made me interested.. and concerned for own my dyno-shootout after the winter. Sounds like i'm gonna max out the injector to then.. I see know that both the 2016 and 2017 have the same injectors. The part number is the same for all LC4 engines after 2013: 76041023044

What mods was made to the 701 -17?

I wonder how big the injector actually is.
Someone on a 690 was going for an ethanol conversion and had been looking into this. Guess it's a straight fit.
https://www.fiveomotorsport.com/keihin-hayabusa-gsxr-husaberg-zx10
And here I thought I was done with modding my 701! Good find


The engine-related mods of the two bikes are:
2016- rottweiler intake, wings exhaust with no db killer, block-off plate, evap delete, rally cam, PCV, O2 delete, map switch
2016- rottweiler intake, arrow exhaust with no db killer, block-off plate, evap delete, PCV, O2 delete, map switch

I think if I decide to tear into the motor again, I'll be getting some head work done, try to find a high comp piston, upgraded injectors, and find someone to grind me a custom cam. For the time being though, I'm focusing on suspension and bettering my riding skills
I definitely getting the bigger injector then, what I have found out the stock injector is around 420cc. So seems like the 550cc would be a good upgrade.

My setup next year on my -17 gonna be:
Tekmo racing header
Akrapovic slip-on
Emission junk delete
Husqvarna tuning kit ecu flash
K&N RU-1750 air filter
Daniel crower racing regrinded cam

This season i rode with the husqvarna tuning kit. That was a 5% peak power gain over stock.
 

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I have done some research..

I got the stock injector flow tested.

At 3 bar it flows 450cc, the stock fuel injection seems to be operating at 3,5 bar. At that fuel pressure the injector should be flowing ~ 490cc.

So i bought the 550cc injector from fiveomotorsport, 550cc at 3bar. 594cc at 3,5 bar. Straight fit, should be well enough for me.

Before i did this i actually took contact to some of the makers of some aftermarket tuning kits you can find. (Not gonna shout out them here..) I asked if they had any logs for how high their duty cycles have been, and told about the 2 bikes rusky have mentioned. One answer was that they haden't noticed the duty cycle, and that the duty cycle in the power commander software was not very accurate at all.

So i contacted dynojet..
Dynojet said:
The Duty % gauges of the Power Commander are very accurate. The Injector Duty % is the percentage of time per each cam revolution that the injector is open and spraying fuel. If you have added enough fuel via the Power Commander to cause the injector to reach a 100% duty cycle, then you have added as much fuel as the injector can possibly spray into the engine. Without adding any additional fuel via the Power Commander, we saw a stock Husqvarna 701SM reach an injector duty cycle of 75%. So a 33% fuel increase from the Power Commander at that exact moment in time would have been enough to bring the4 duty cycle all the way up to 100%.
Right now i'm waiting for my new camshaft to arrive, then the plan is got the bike up in the dyno late march/early april.
 

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Discussion Starter #83
I have done some research..

I got the stock injector flow tested.

At 3 bar it flows 450cc, the stock fuel injection seems to be operating at 3,5 bar. At that fuel pressure the injector should be flowing ~ 490cc.

So i bought the 550cc injector from fiveomotorsport, 550cc at 3bar. 594cc at 3,5 bar. Straight fit, should be well enough for me.

Before i did this i actually took contact to some of the makers of some aftermarket tuning kits you can find. (Not gonna shout out them here..) I asked if they had any logs for how high their duty cycles have been, and told about the 2 bikes rusky have mentioned. One answer was that they haden't noticed the duty cycle, and that the duty cycle in the power commander software was not very accurate at all.

So i contacted dynojet..


Right now i'm waiting for my new camshaft to arrive, then the plan is got the bike up in the dyno late march/early april.
Thanks for all the additional information! It's certainly good news that there are upgraded injectors openly available. Could you post up a link to the one that you ended up going with?

Also, judging from your profile picture, it looks like you have a 2017. I'm curious which camshaft you ended up going with because based on my research, the EVO 2 cam will not work with the newer motors.
 

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Thanks for all the additional information! It's certainly good news that there are upgraded injectors openly available. Could you post up a link to the one that you ended up going with?

Also, judging from your profile picture, it looks like you have a 2017. I'm curious which camshaft you ended up going with because based on my research, the EVO 2 cam will not work with the newer motors.
Here's the injector i bought:
https://www.fiveomotorsport.com/keihin-hayabusa-gsxr-husaberg-zx10

Choose the 550cc, 650cc is way to big. But an option if someone want to run the bike on e85 (ethanol). That's how i found it, some guy on a facebook group had his KTM 690 setup for e85.

And yes you're correct, i have a 2017. So the Evo 2 cam won't fit my bike.

Daniel Crower Racing does regrinds on the stock camshaft. :)
 

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Discussion Starter #85
Here's the injector i bought:
https://www.fiveomotorsport.com/keihin-hayabusa-gsxr-husaberg-zx10

Choose the 550cc, 650cc is way to big. But an option if someone want to run the bike on e85 (ethanol). That's how i found it, some guy on a facebook group had his KTM 690 setup for e85.

And yes you're correct, i have a 2017. So the Evo 2 cam won't fit my bike.

Daniel Crower Racing does regrinds on the stock camshaft. :)
Excellent! Do you have any additional details on the type of cam profile being made for you? Will it require upgraded valvetrain at all?
 

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Excellent! Do you have any additional details on the type of cam profile being made for you? Will it require upgraded valvetrain at all?
More lift and some more exhaust duration, actually not any more intake duration. But who knows how the overlaps and all stuff is made.. Would be fun to hit 85hp engine peak power, should be possible with this, if not very very close.

Valve train remains stock on this "Stage 2 cam".

But the spec i know:
Lift intake
Stock: 8,509mm
DCR: 9,347 mm

Lift exhaust:
Stock: 8,864 mm
DCR: 9,398 mm

+14 degrees exhaust duration
 

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Can’t wait for a report.

It would be interesting to see what result just changing the injectors makes. IE how much it’s holding it back.

Very interested in what the cam does to the power curve.
 

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Very stoked to see this thread is still active.

Yeah!! Me three....... Hey rusky..... I am in Wenatchee. Is Nels' the only one "dyno tuning" in Seattle?

17 EVO Lid
FMF Q4 has sparky insert to install...... Bark is rather loud......Left the SAS on and no backfires anyway...... Have you seen the Coober stuff yet?
 

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Sorry for my ignorance.
If I changed to a bigger injector, I’m assuming I’d need to get the bike tuned again. Or does the injection system just put the same amount of fuel in? With the potential for more if required.

Any potential disadvantage of a slightly bigger injector? Less midrange? (Worse atomization at low rpm?)
 

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Sorry for my ignorance.
If I changed to a bigger injector, I’m assuming I’d need to get the bike tuned again. Or does the injection system just put the same amount of fuel in? With the potential for more if required.

Any potential disadvantage of a slightly bigger injector? Less midrange? (Worse atomization at low rpm?)


And now we are getting into understanding FI. And the need to understand if your in open or closed loop and Are the readings at the 02 sensor are accurate and checked at at live time or what delay there is if any. Or are you 02 delete (and harness capped with a special plug that is just a constant type resistance) and just relying on a preset map at engine speed to spit the juice.... This point is where you are going to get tuners hopefully on here to admit and see what does and does not work and why......... I am just sitting here looking at all of the things stated by shops out there with product and what the MFG says you get............ it all just does not add up......
 

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And now we are getting into understanding FI. And the need to understand if your in open or closed loop and Are the readings at the 02 sensor are accurate and checked at at live time or what delay there is if any. Or are you 02 delete (and harness capped with a special plug that is just a constant type resistance) and just relying on a preset map at engine speed to spit the juice.... This point is where you are going to get tuners hopefully on here to admit and see what does and does not work and why......... I am just sitting here looking at all of the things stated by shops out there with product and what the MFG says you get............ it all just does not add up......
Mine is closed (oops “open”) loop. No O2 sensor hooked up. (Bypassed as part of the de-smog kit)
An O2 sensor is used in the exhaust during dyno tuning.

My understanding is that since the dyno guy didn’t say “I can’t get the mixture rich enough at high RPM”, the stock injector was up to the job. And no advantage would result from a larger injector and more tuning.

Comments.
 

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Mine is closed loop. No O2 sensor hooked up. (Bypassed as part of the de-smog kit)
An O2 sensor is used in the exhaust during dyno tuning.

My understanding is that since the dyno guy didn’t say “I can’t get the mixture rich enough at high RPM”, the stock injector was up to the job. And no advantage would result from a larger injector and more tuning.

Comments.
Ok Yes.... I agree on the Injector.... I don't on the closed loop though. I do not agree on predetermining What is going to be squirted with the outside air temp.... Baro reading, humidity, and the Mass Airflow sensor itself always changing with the weather. There is a reason for an 02 sensor.... it was installed and programmed according to what is also mechanically inside the motor..... IE(Forged parts inside can be ran at closer pinpoint to max without damage etc.) and really needs to be in the system when the firing of the injector is being driven by the computer.. It really does allow a better and more complete burn it is used in the programming of injector fire and what fuels are doing inside. Point to ponder.... Not all fuels are the same from station to station and when traveling or even a weekend ride requires refueling at times..... I do not use E85 or oxygenated fuels because of the variance in quality and the crappy corn alcohol they use can easily absord almost its own weight in water..... so not all fuels are going to burn the same just as not every day of the year is the same temp or number of minutes in the day. So why are you telling the bike everyday is always the same???

And for pete's sake.... who in here sprays oil on the intake sensors and throttle body throat not to mention what that oil does to MAF sensor reading......... UGH.
 

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02 sensor has no effect whatsoever outside of idle and narrow throttle openings. I think you're overestimating the effect of the 02 sensor.

Hahahaha....... ^^^^^ and this IS my point......... I have been repairing and fixing FI systems for over 30 years..... I would highly suggest and respectfully request you learn a bit more about the systems and their sensors before you make those statements.... Like I posted this is where some need to understand just how FI works and what each sensor does......


Plugging in a dongle to the 02 sensor port and lying to it about what is happening is like someone trying to read what I posted on here with duct tape plastered all over your eyes. One of the sensors for the FI to be able to operate properly has been removed. This is going to become comical.......... some of the answers are so far fetched it is hilarious.
 

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I have read numerous times that Motorcycle systems are often quite different to car systems.

Often bikes have a “closed loop” to a certain RPM, then “open loop” (no sensor information) after that point. This is what Husky.Moto is referring to, I believe. I’m almost certain this was true for the Ducati Streetfighter, with most people happier with the bike once the O2 sensor was removed from the action. Same for the 701.

My bike runs really well with no wires going to the O2 sensor anymore. I cant give an exact difference as many changes occurred during the same “surgery”.

Many cars “auto tune” constantly based, at least partially, on a “knock sensor”. This results in a big improvement in performance when higher octane fuel is introduced. And conversely “limp home” mode when run on poor fuel.

Bikes don’t normally work this way. I think some 690 models had a manual ECU setting for poor fuel.

Where would we find some definitive information?
 

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Here’s something I found.
Someone more qualified than me.

Talking in part, specifically about BMW bikes (the most “car like” bike around:rofl:).
He expands on my limited knowledge on the difference between cars and bikes, and why closed loop systems have limitations on high performance bikes.

"Gentlemen,
There seems to be quite a buzz concerning the new BMW Wideband Power Commander and its possible use on other motorcycle models. There are a number of reasons why the unit was designed for the BMW models the way it was and many reasons why we do not use this setup on other bikes.

Let us start with why the BMW uses a wide band O2 sensor as part of the unit. The bike already has a "closed loop" circuit as part of the OEM injection system. It does not "auto map" the entire rpm/throttle position range of the fuel map. Generally speaking, the closed loop system only adjusts the fuel curve below @40% throttle. Above that the system is "open loop". The new Wide Band BMW unit only controls the stock "closed loop" area. Outside of that the bike is mapped in the normal fashion, on the dyno.

We would actually prefer not to maintain the closed loop section. Due to the design of the OEM injection system it is not possible to bypass it as we do with other models. Closed Loop systems are not the "magic" that most people believe they are. There are a number of problems that keep it from being the best choice for high performance applications.

This brings us to why we do not use this type of system on other applications. Unlike car systems that have a mass airflow sensor, motorcycles cannot monitor the amount of air ingested (as a side note, most automotive application are also not fully closed loop systems). O2 sensors only read the amount of residual oxygen in the exhaust and calculate the air/fuel ratio based on that data. The problem is that the reading at the O2 sensor has already occurred in the engine. This is not a problem when making adjustments during steady throttle riding while on the highway as there is adequate time to change the mixture and then check to make sure it is correct. During times of aggressive throttle movement, both on and off throttle, this data is useless and an "open loop" system must be used.

Things such as installing a sensor into your bike, the cost of the sensor (and its replacement), the lack of individual cylinder control, disabling of "air injection" systems, etc., all play a part in the why a Wide Band Power Commander is not practical for all applications. For many, simply finding a shop to weld on a fitting for the O2 sensor onto their brand new chrome exhaust system without damaging it is a problem.

A big problem is that if all fuel adjustments are based on the O2 sensor reading items such as an exhaust leak, "air injection" systems, poorly located O2 sensors, and faulty or degraded O2 sensors can have the bike running very poorly. Short exhaust system are notorious for having reversion issues (air pulsing back up the exhaust) which then cause false readings leading to overly rich mixtures.

Since the BMW was designed from the start to have a closed loop layout and exhaust styles do not vary to any great degree it is not difficult to implement our Wide Band technology. On other bikes simply adding an O2 sensor is not the best choice on tuning. From a cost standpoint it is less expensive to purchase the standard Power Commander and have a custom map (individual cylinder mapping for best performance) made than to buy the more expensive Wide Band system and have a fitting installed into the exhaust.

On the dyno all of the changes can be double checked to make sure that the performance is at its peak. Improper adjustments will be corrected before they cause a running problem out on the road. While at first glance it would appear that a Closed Loop system is the answer to all tuning questions, in actual practice it is just not that simple.

Regards,
Michael Belcher
Director of Fuel Injection Development"
 

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Hahahaha....... ^^^^^ and this IS my point......... I have been repairing and fixing FI systems for over 30 years..... I would highly suggest and respectfully request you learn a bit more about the systems and their sensors before you make those statements.... Like I posted this is where some need to understand just how FI works and what each sensor does......


Plugging in a dongle to the 02 sensor port and lying to it about what is happening is like someone trying to read what I posted on here with duct tape plastered all over your eyes. One of the sensors for the FI to be able to operate properly has been removed. This is going to become comical.......... some of the answers are so far fetched it is hilarious.
You have completely discredited yourself, and if your experience in "repairing and fixing FI systems for over 30 years" involves dealing with customers bikes I have sympathy for the people you robbed.
 

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You have completely discredited yourself, and if your experience in "repairing and fixing FI systems for over 30 years" involves dealing with customers bikes I have sympathy for the people you robbed.

Which is EXACTLY what I would expect you to say.... when YOU get discredited and exposed. My real world experience is when you show people how things really work they get testy, bitch at or try to make others look even worse and then try and add some type of guilt onto those I have helped ......??? Like I said it is gonna get comical. Would you like a tissue Husky.Moto?????

Put your sympathy box away.... someone else needs it...... and show me some different FACTS.
 
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